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Just answer this question ( the whether he can or can't confer infiltrate is moot...he can)

A squad of assault marines is joined pre-deployment by a chaplain. Shrike is then attached.

Can the unit now infiltrate? ( Shrike confers infiltrate to any unit he is attached to. Since the Chaplain is pre-attached and now part of the unit, Shrike now confers it.



In case someone feels like arguing the he can't infiltrate with a squad part, there is an example of deployment in the book where an IC is attached pre-deployment to a squad, so that ends the whole Shrike argument.

General Hobbs wrote:In case someone feels like arguing the he can't infiltrate with a squad part, there is an example of deployment in the book where an IC is attached pre-deployment to a squad, so that ends the whole Shrike argument.

Can we have a page Reference? The only way to attach an IC to a squad not in reserves is to deploy them within coherency. You cannot attach them "pre deployment" unless it is a retinue.

RaW he cannot infiltrate with a squad. So no, he can't.

Now, if the rule were worded to allow him to do so, then I would say No, the Chaplain cannot join them because he is not part of "Shrikes Squad" (Whatever that is).

Page 48 under special rules. An IC without infiltrate is joined to a squad that has infiltrate. The squad then has to deploy normally, because it loses the infiltrate ability due to being joined by the IC. Therefore, the IC is joined to the squad pre-deployment, while the squad still had the option to be placed on the table or held for reserve. Note, it says infiltrate, not outflank etc. so it is clear that the intention would have been to infiltrate the squad. I think the language is clear that the squad is joined while it still has the option to infiltrate, therefore, you can join an IC to a squad during the deployment phase, but before the unit is placed on the table.

The reason why the squad cannot infiltrate is BECAUSE you cannot join them pre deployment.

In order for the IC to join them, the unit must deploy. This is what the deployment rules and the IC rules say. End of discussion. Page 48 just reminds you of that.

Furthermore, next time, quote the rule, do not paraphrase it to try and fit your argument.

The rule says "For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment", not "Pre-Deployment" like you claim.

General Hobbs wrote:An IC without infiltrate is joined to a squad that has infiltrate.

It actually says 'If' an IC without infiltrate is joined... It's giving an example based on an IC who has the ability to do so. In order to actually do it, the IC still needs a rule that allows it.

Unfortunately, while the passage you referred to suggests it should be possible, as the rules currently stand there is no rule that allows Shrike to join a unit before deployment.


However, if you are playing that he can do so, on the assumption that IC's are supposed to be able to join units before deployment (which is a fair assumption to make given Shrike's rules) then I see no reason that you couldn't also join other IC's to the unit.

I personally played a raven guard army for over a year in my local GW, and every game I played I had Shrike, a unit of assault marines and a chaplain all infiltrate, and never once did anyone question this. My store is a large one, and has many experienced SM players and tournament players, and never once did anyone say this was not allowed. I am very surprised to see this rule under discussion, and from a purely logical point of view, as Shrikes rule allows him to INFILTRATE with a squad, surely that means just that. Because if he couldn't join a squad in deployment, and therefore not actually INFILTRATE with it, it would say, Shrike and his unit can OUTFLANK.

Because if he couldn't join a squad in deployment, and therefore not actually INFILTRATE with it, it would say, Shrike and his unit can OUTFLANK.

No, it wouldn't. You have no idea what the author was thinking. You do not know the "Intent" or "Logic" of the rule. If GW wanted them to be able to Infiltrate, they would have issued an Errata. They haven't, so as it stands you cannot infiltrate Termies with Shrike or what have you, because of the way the Deployment rules are written. Compare the rule to the 4th edition version of Shrike, which DID let his unit Infiltrate. If they wanted to keep the rule the same, why change it?

If you want to house rule it however, that is fine too, just be aware of what the RaW actually is and do not be annoyed if someone wants to -Le Gasp- follow the rules.

Gwar wrote:
If you want to house rule it however, that is fine too, just be aware of what the RaW actually is and do not be annoyed if someone wants to -Le Gasp- follow the rules.

Shrike in the newest vanilla marines codex looks like a copy-paste. The author copied him and never stopped to consider whether his special rules work in 5th. I'd be happy to houserule him as allowing an Assaut squad (or even a Tac squad) to infiltrate with him, but terminators? Huffing too much glue, sir.

Gwar! wrote:If GW wanted them to be able to Infiltrate, they would have issued an Errata. They haven't, so as it stands you cannot infiltrate Termies with Shrike or what have you, because of the way the Deployment rules are written.

As has been pointed out to you every single time that you bring out this particular little red herring, the lack of errata has no bearing on GW's intentions.

The RAW does prevent it from being possible, through a slightly convoluted rules pathway that most players never even stop to consider because of how the rule says it should worl. It should be obvious that the fact that his rules specifically state that his rule applies to his squad means that he is supposed to be able to be with a squad in some manner upon deployment. The reasonable response is not to disallow him from joining a squad, it's to discuss with your opponent how best to allow it to happen.

insaniak wrote:As has been pointed out to you every single time that you bring out this particular little red herring, the lack of errata has no bearing on GW's intentions.

And I disagree with your opinion that it is a red herring. In my opinion GW have a method of changing what the rules in their product say. If they do not use it to change certain things, but change others, then they intended to do so. They do follow fan forums (as shown by the plagiarism of my SW FAQ) and they must be inundated with emails regarding this subject, so the only logical reason why they have not errata'd it is because they feel the rules are correct.

And the rules say you cannot Infiltrate Termies with Shrike.

You claim that they do not errata it because it is a convoluted pathway, but the fact that Strength X Poison Weapons are completely fubar is also a convoluted pathway, and yet they fixed that in the Space Marine Errata as well.

Am I no longer permitted to voice my opinions, insaniak?

Gwar! wrote:They do follow fan forums (as shown by the plagiarism of my SW FAQ) and they must be inundated with emails regarding this subject, so the only logical reason why they have no errata'd it is because they feel the rules are correct.

Or simply that they have noticed that everyone plays it the way it was intended anyway, so there's no real need to errata it.

I would be very surprised if this is even an issue anywhere other than rules discussion forums. Walk into a gaming club and try to insist that someone can't infiltrate their Shrike with a unit, and see if you can count all the blank stares.

Am I no longer permitted to voice my opinions, insaniak?

If you weren't, I would have deleted the post rather than just pointing out why it is incorrect. Seriously, Gwar, the martyr act got old a long time ago. Move on.

Radi87 wrote:I personally played a raven guard army for over a year in my local GW, and every game I played I had Shrike, a unit of assault marines and a chaplain all infiltrate, and never once did anyone question this. My store is a large one, and has many experienced SM players and tournament players, and never once did anyone say this was not allowed. I am very surprised to see this rule under discussion, and from a purely logical point of view, as Shrikes rule allows him to INFILTRATE with a squad, surely that means just that. Because if he couldn't join a squad in deployment, and therefore not actually INFILTRATE with it, it would say, Shrike and his unit can OUTFLANK.

So? What's your point exactly? Are you trying to say a whole store managed to not notice you not playing by the rules?

"Well we've always played it THAT way" is not a valid argument. You've simply just house-ruled it regardless of what the rules actually say.

insaniak wrote:I would be very surprised if this is even an issue anywhere other than rules discussion forums. Walk into a gaming club and try to insist that someone can't infiltrate their Shrike with a unit, and see if you can count all the blank stares.

I have. I normally get a "What?", followed by me explaining why, followed by a "Oh, wow... never knew that."

Radi87 wrote:<snip> Because if he couldn't join a squad in deployment, and therefore not actually INFILTRATE with it, it would say, Shrike and his unit can OUTFLANK.

Outflank isn't a USR, it is a special reserve effect conferred by Scout or Infiltrate USRs. If they gave Shrike Outflank as a special rule, they'd have to go through additional trouble explaining either how to find Outflank or what Outflank was. Additionally, they'd have to give him Infiltrate separately.

Outflank is described as a special case under the rules for arriving from reserves on page 94.

P.S. managed to get at my computer at home.

Mahtamori wrote: If they gave Shrike Outflank as a special rule, they'd have to go through additional trouble explaining either how to find Outflank or what Outflank was.

They didn't for Khan, and most players seem to have managed to figure it out.

Grimtuff wrote:"Well we've always played it THAT way" is not a valid argument. You've simply just house-ruled it regardless of what the rules actually say.

Aye. Played it that way is not rules. Finns (who read English in school and learn most of it from watching DVDs) have trouble with the Deldar drug rules and even redshirts think a Succubus with a dispenser gives his better stuff to the squad. No one can point out the section that tells us how it works, who rolls for effects and who dies... but "we've always played it like that".

insaniak wrote:

Mahtamori wrote: If they gave Shrike Outflank as a special rule, they'd have to go through additional trouble explaining either how to find Outflank or what Outflank was.

They didn't for Khan, and most players seem to have managed to figure it out.

Fair point, but it's bad form referencing a special rule which isn't listed as a special rule and once in a blue moon even GW might consider that

I still think that Gwar's (and many others) interpretation of the "deploy with a unit" thing incorrectly.

Mostly because when you run a logic check when they are deployed:

Step 1: Infiltrators set up
Step 2: Shrike & Friends are deployed
Step 3: Is this a legal deployment?
Step 4: Yes as Shrike & Friends are deployed as a single unit with Shrike in coherency.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit!

Versus a non-infiltrating unit:

Step 1: Infiltrators
Step 2: Some random Land Raider is deployed
Step 3: Is this a legal deployment?
Step 4: No

This part is why it falls apart, by RAW:

Shrike325 wrote:Step 1: Infiltrators set up
Step 2: Shrike & Friends are deployed

Infiltrate tells us to set up models with the Infiltrate rule after all other models have been deployed or placed in reserve.

However, we're only allowed to join an IC to the unit upon deployment. Many people read the IC rules as meaning that the unit has to be on the table and the IC subsequently placed in coherency with them (which prevents Shrike's rule from working, as the unit has to be placed first, at which point it can't infiltrate because it doesn't have the Infiltrate rule because Shrike hasn't joined them yet). I've come to agree with the other interpretation, that the IC and the unit can be deployed simultaneously in coherency in order for the IC to be joined... but that still doesn't actually allow Shrike's rule to work, because they're not considered joined until deployment... and as the unit doesn't have Infiltrate until Shrike joins them, they couldn't be held back to the Infiltrate step, in which case they would have been deployed with the rest of the army.

So whichever interpretation of the IC rule you use, the only way that Shrike and his unit can deploy together is if you add in a house rule allowing them to be joined prior to deployment... which is the way (in my experience) most people tend to play it, and the way I would strongly suspect (based on this and other similar rules that have cropped up over the years) GW play it and take for granted everyone understands it to work.

insaniak wrote:TSo whichever interpretation of the IC rule you use, the only way that Shrike and his unit can deploy together is if you add in a house rule allowing them to be joined prior to deployment... which is the way (in my experience) most people tend to play it, and the way I would strongly suspect (based on this and other similar rules that have cropped up over the years) GW play it and take for granted everyone understands it to work.

In the previous marine codex (that Shrike seems to have been copypasted from) "Shrike's unit" was a retinue for him... An assault squad with some nifty options like lots of Lightning Claws IIRC. I'd happily houserule him being able to join a regular assault squad, or perhaps a TacSquad.... if you want Terminators you can go sniff glue somewhere else.

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:As has been pointed out to you every single time that you bring out this particular little red herring, the lack of errata has no bearing on GW's intentions.

And I disagree with your opinion that it is a red herring. In my opinion GW have a method of changing what the rules in their product say. If they do not use it to change certain things, but change others, then they intended to do so. They do follow fan forums (as shown by the plagiarism of my SW FAQ) and they must be inundated with emails regarding this subject, so the only logical reason why they have not errata'd it is because they feel the rules are correct.

And the rules say you cannot Infiltrate Termies with Shrike.

You claim that they do not errata it because it is a convoluted pathway, but the fact that Strength X Poison Weapons are completely fubar is also a convoluted pathway, and yet they fixed that in the Space Marine Errata as well.

Am I no longer permitted to voice my opinions, insaniak?

And why is it that every single period and comma, every clause, every word in the BRB is taken as sacrosanct? You're like a religious fundamentalist and the BRB is your holy book. Rules are meant for interpretation. Your interpretation of a single sentence could be vastly different from mine, simply from inflection. So who's right? You, because you think that's what they mean as well? Just because it is Rules as Written doesn't mean it is Rules as Intended, for my favor or yours. Maybe it's the same reason that they haven't errataed this very example - because they, perhaps, don't think that literally about every single word placed into the BRB.

"Hey guys, we got a new one for the Errata."

"Okay, what is it?"

"Can Shrike infiltrate with a unit?"

"Doesn't his rule say that? Doesn't it say, 'Shrike and his unit may infiltrate'?"

"Ummmm, yeah."

"And that is confusing how? If he wasn't meant to infiltrate with his unit, we wouldn't have written, 'Shrike and his unit may infiltrate.' Where do they get these guys?"

"I don't know, probably the same group of people that were trying to claim that the Swarmlord wasn't a Hive Tyrant."

"Ooooh yeah, that bunch."

Have we hit all of the notes on this song and dance yet, or have we missed something from last time? Oh, wait, I know, the "It's not completely broken" two step:

Here's an example of a unit which get's a USR which it can only get partial use out of: Chaos Space Marine Possessed. Chaos Space Marine Possessed can wind up with the 'Scouts' special rule, which they get at a point in the game where they only get to use part of it.

So, if CSM Possessed get Scout and can't outflank, why is it surprising that Shrike has Infiltrate and can only Outflank?

This has been a service of the Devil's Advocate Support Group, in answer to the rhetorical question, "Why would GW produce a special rule which the setup sequence does allow to work?"

Are we done yet?

solkan wrote:So, if CSM Possessed get Scout and can't outflank, why is it surprising that Shrike has Infiltrate and can only Outflank?

The current CSM codex was written for 4th edition, when Outflank didn't exist. Shrike's current rules were written for 5th.


But yes, I think we've covered all the usual territory.