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I just would like to know if they are good to use or not.

I haven't played them yet but they read like a beefed up slightly more eratic version of conscripts .

I think they do mindnumbingly well in kill team.
Otherwise, I can't comment.

I like the idea, but it's a niche unit, somewhat like possessed: limited application.

They are most likely a unit to take because you can.

I like them in small numbers. I've been playing around with sticking a unit of penal legionares and a priest with an eviserator in a vendetta for a 1st turn assault alpha strike.

Sanctjud wrote:I think they do mindnumbingly well in kill team.
Otherwise, I can't comment.

From what I have read and the games I have seen them used in, they appear to be quite impressive.

I like the idea, but it's a niche unit, somewhat like possessed: limited application.

They are most likely a unit to take because you can.

Certainly too random to take for a specific reason.

Yeah, they would make a lot more sense if they were a little more expensive, but you could choose which ability they had rather than rolling for it!

They are not bad. It's nice to have a cheap unit to outflnak and come in the deep sides of your opponents deployment zone. A nice scoring unit to contest/take objectives and they won't break the bank points wise.

So, they're not bad, but they fill kind of a strange role.

They can't take special weapons, and all 3 of their special rules basically let them pretend that they're an infantry squad of twice their size:

- 10 guys firing twice with lasguns and then charging in with 2 attacks on the charge is roughly equal to 20 guys shooting lasguns

- fleet and furious charge make them do roughly twice as much damage as 20 regular dudes when they're charging around, and furious charge literally gives them twice the attacks of a unit their size when they're charged.

- rending, well, once you do the math also makes it look like you're doing up to twice as much damage.

So really, you have to start by thinking of them as 2 regular infantry squads of damage (without special weapons), with half the durability for 80% the cost. This is kind of strange as real infantry platoons come with special weapons and power swords, so it's kind of hard to compare.

Meanwhile, of course, they get stubborn for free, and they can outflank, which makes them hugely worth the points (getting regular infantry squads to do this costs a lot more), but, once again, you're just basically going around with lasguns on a low number of T3 models.

As such, it's kind of hard to find a place for them, which is why you don't necessarily see them a lot. I mean, I guess I could see them as supplimenting an al'rahem outflank (they are a really cheap way to bulk out an outflanking force)

The real problem is that they're like scout sentinels - they're cool because they're REALLY cheap, and can outflank, but they do so little damage, and are so fragile, that it really makes you wonder why you'd bother to take them at all.

I guess, like scout sentinels, I'd really probably only take them if I really couldn't figure out what better to do with the points, and I already had a lot of stuff outflanking, or was having other problems with mobility in my army.

I like them as a unit to grab an objective. I've seen them beat down Space Marines in close combat. They are really cheap for what you get too.

I regularly employ one squad in my "all comers" list. So far they have not disappointed me in their chosen role: flank disruption.

A Stubborn squad hitting your flank can be incredible annoying. Especially if they manage to catch a support unit ( units with heavy weapons etc. ) that was deployed a bit too close to the side. Their job is not to win on their own but to buy the rest of the army time with their sacrifice. Each round an enemy missile/mortar/etc. team is not shooting my main line is pure gold. And if the enemy does not kill them off, the criminals will just keep pushing forward until they are stopped.

They aren't a damage dealing unit in the slightest. Even with rending, they simply don't enough damage to be worth it. Look at them as a scoring unit with LD8, Stubborn, and Scout. The bonus abilities are gravy, but really don't do anything you can't get elsewhere.

In a footslogging or hybrid list they give some mobility and disruption that the lists generally lack. They also can operate independently, which blob platoon squads can't do as well.

In the right list, used in the right way they're worth the 80pts and rarely used up troops slot. As long as you don't think of them as damage dealers, but instead as disruptors, they'll perform admirably.

Why does it matter if their stubborn when they're simply wiped out by most credible CC threats anyways?

Lets say a tac squad fires bolt pistols before charging penal legionnaires in cover. We will assume that they have the "knife fighters" bonus.

7 bolt pistol hits, 4 wounds, and two dead guardsmen.

Then the tac squad charges, striking first with 22 attacks. That's 14 hits, and 10 wounds, resulting in 6-7 failed saves. The one or two surviving guys might kill a space marine before they die after their own CC phase. Because they are stubborn, they are likely to stay in CC during their own shooting phase, a disastrous outcome for Guard.

Granted, this is an 80 point unit, where tac squads routinely come in at 175+, but it's also just showing why Guard who want to do CC stick with combined infantry platoons: not only do you get ablative wounds to soak higher-initiative attacks, but blobbing platoons is one of the few ways to get an equal-points value of models in CC with the enemy at one time.

You're analysis is correct, but I think you're still looking at them the wrong way. Instead of having a tactical squad at 10 men charge them, instead have them charge a five man shooty combat squad. Five MEQ attacks take a lot longer to chew through 10 wounds. Or send the legionaires againts a smallter loota squad. Or Pathfinders (either type).

Even in todays mostly Mech environment there are still small objective holding units that Legionnaires do a credible job of typing up/defeating.

At worst, you have a scouting bubble wrap squad.

I don't put much stock into out-flanking infantry speed units actually making CC with a target they'd be good at fighting.

I don't know about other people, but I just don't put units near the edge to be sacrificed like that.

With my Eldar pathfinders, I'll actually shoot penal legionnaires with my shuriken pistols and then assault *them* as I have a decent chance of success.

Considering everything they can do, they are probably worth their price tag. Unfortunately, what they can do (deliver a bunch of low-S attacks) isn't very awesome.

I don't usually go into CC expecting to win it with IG. When I do pull out the occasional power platoon, I always outflank them with Creed or Al. The platoon is of course three times the cost, but it is a credible threat to vehicles and infantry squads. I don't often bother with melta bombs on the Sgts. Going by statistical average, they have decent odds of killing a dread, but I hate relying on 6s. And if they blow it up, the ensuing explosion will take a big chunk of them with it. If I get a platoon tied up by a Dreadnought, it really is my own damn fault, I should have neutralized that threat before committing them to fight. Usually in that case I just cut my losses and hope they are near an objective.

willydstyle wrote:I don't put much stock into out-flanking infantry speed units actually making CC with a target they'd be good at fighting.

I don't know about other people, but I just don't put units near the edge to be sacrificed like that.

With my Eldar pathfinders, I'll actually shoot penal legionnaires with my shuriken pistols and then assault *them* as I have a decent chance of success.

Yes you do. Of course, doing so will move you off of an objective, and prevent you from shooting at a more dangerous target. If the IG player is smart, he'll outflank the legionnaires outside of cover, so after you win, you'll be out of cover.

They don't need to win. They just need to disrupt the enemy.

I agree they are primarily a disruption unit and at 80 points it's a good bargain.

Last game i went with 2 units to complement my mech vets. One had rending and the other Assault 2. The assault 2 squad ended on the wrong side and were mowed down by plague marines... The rending ones outflanked near an objective got hit by swooping hawks grenade and shooting, survived thanks to cover, proceeded to butcher the hawks, and assaulted a Lord with terminator armor contesting an objective. 3 rending wounds later the 4 surviving penals went to ground on the objective winning us the battle. Thats 80 pts well spent.

And yes i know that this is anecdotal by every time i use them the rending ones will consistely please me. There are other scarier things for my opponents to shoot at and a small squad can win me games.

And Alairos is really right on this: they are like Scout Sentinels, who do ok as long as there are other scarier things to shoot.

I can see them being used as a scouting screening unit. I just wish I could find the points to justify purchasing them. I guess I could drop my armored sentinels, but the units serve different purposes.

Armored sents are tarpits, and a scouting screening unit is used for keeping things like vendettas away from your lines.

To be honest my plasma cannon sentinels, while they are far from ideal, still cause more damage than a similar number of penal legionnaires would.

It's really too bad you can't give them ANY upgrades. I mean, if you could give the custodian a power fist or meltabombs, or even 1 special weapon, it might otherwise be worth it.

Otherwise, this stubborn group of psychopaths show up magically out of nowhere, and your opponent shrugs their shoulders and says "so?"

Ailaros wrote:It's really too bad you can't give them ANY upgrades. I mean, if you could give the custodian a power fist or meltabombs, or even 1 special weapon, it might otherwise be worth it.

Otherwise, this stubborn group of psychopaths show up magically out of nowhere, and your opponent shrugs their shoulders and says "so?"

I feel the same way. if they could have some upgrades(even just flamers!), they might draw more interest from me in them.

The squad only costs 80 points, that is kind of the point. They don't really need any upgrades. All of their special skills are pretty good, obviously everyone loves rending the best which is no surprise. Depending on your style of army they can give it some unique character.

Ailaros wrote:Otherwise, this stubborn group of psychopaths show up magically out of nowhere, and your opponent shrugs their shoulders and says "so?"

OK, second try for reply. Damn interwebz connection failed at critical moment

"So?" is exactly what I want to hear from my opponents .

I believe the detractors are looking at the Penal troopers from the wrong angle. Sure, they will not survive against "proper" melee units. Yes, they lack upgrades. But those questions are besides the point. The Legionnaires are a reasonable cheap expendable* infantry unit with a nice combinations of skills. Skills that the IG usually only gets with a heavier price tag ( commissars, Harker etc. ). Do not set the expectations unreasonably high. We are talking about an IG infantry unit after all is said and done.

*Remember that these guys are condemned criminals that have sinned against the God-Emperor of Mankind. They are paying for their sins with their hearts blood .

I use them pretty often, and they make their money back 2/3 games. They're funny addition to friendly games IMHO. One time they slaughtered biker squad and deffkopta in single multicharge. Next time they got slaughtered by occasional bolter fire. It's like scout sentinel: can be pain in the ass, but don't count on it.

A-P wrote:The Legionnaires are a reasonable cheap expendable* infantry unit

expendable to what end?

I'm all for sacrificial units, but the only time suicide is worth it is when it does something to help you win the game. Having a unit show up, sacrifice themselves, and not actually have disrupted the enemy very much isn't worth it. What does throwing 10 T3 5+ dudes at someone achieve?

Yeah, they're cheap, but I'm having a hard time seeing how they're worth even their low cost.

Ailaros wrote:

A-P wrote:The Legionnaires are a reasonable cheap expendable* infantry unit

expendable to what end?

I'm all for sacrificial units, but the only time suicide is worth it is when it does something to help you win the game. Having a unit show up, sacrifice themselves, and not actually have disrupted the enemy very much isn't worth it. What does throwing 10 T3 5+ dudes at someone achieve?

Yeah, they're cheap, but I'm having a hard time seeing how they're worth even their low cost.

In the situation that you're facing a powerful unit that can hit you first turn, such as demo vets out of a valkyrie, if your penal legionnaires get to scout first, they can keep the valkyrie far enough from your lines that your opponent won't even disembark the vets.

However, I admit that this is a situation that requires a lot of *ifs* but if you're running mechanized guard multi-charges with meltabombs can really ruin your day.

I've got some really nice old necromunda (I think) figures that look great as penal legionaries so that is my justification. Still, they could do with some extra abilities.
Penal legion, so how about anytime they make it in to assault a vehicle they get automatic immobilization as they steal its wheels, one of the guns, the stereo, and graffiti the side of it. Land raider isn't so scary now its up on bricks and there are loose wires where there used to be a melta gun.

willydstyle wrote:your penal legionnaires get to scout first

Okay, sure. For 240 points I could recreate the hilarious "krootfiltration".

Not all that useful otherwise.

I like them a lot! All of the rolls are good, and I usually just decide what to do with them afterwards.

They're a good choice for a "I just want to get these crappy troops choices out of the way" Unit. They're cool for treadhead lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Citizensmith wrote:I've got some really nice old necromunda (I think) figures that look great as penal legionaries so that is my justification. Still, they could do with some extra abilities.
Penal legion, so how about anytime they make it in to assault a vehicle they get automatic immobilization as they steal its wheels, one of the guns, the stereo, and graffiti the side of it. Land raider isn't so scary now its up on bricks and there are loose wires where there used to be a melta gun.

OR, if they engage an enemy unit in assault, they steal a weapon of their choice from the other unit :3

Citizensmith wrote:I've got some really nice old necromunda (I think) figures that look great as penal legionaries so that is my justification. Still, they could do with some extra abilities.
Penal legion, so how about anytime they make it in to assault a vehicle they get automatic immobilization as they steal its wheels, one of the guns, the stereo, and graffiti the side of it. Land raider isn't so scary now its up on bricks and there are loose wires where there used to be a melta gun.