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So let me preface this by saying I haven't played in more than a decade. I'm dusting off the minis to get into 8th edition and since 'ard Boyz is free I figure why not

Here's what I'm thinking of running, anyone see any glaring holes in my list???

Lords: 746 pts
Teclis
Prince on Barded Steed - Dragon Armor, Shield, Star Lance, Sacred Incense, Amulet of Light

Heroes: 727 pts
Caradryan
Noble Battle Standard Bearer - Heavy Armor, Great Weapon, Battle Banner
Mage on foot, Lvl 2 - Annulian Crystal, Silver Wand
Mage on foot, Lvl 2 - The Seerstaff of Saphery

Core: 752 pts
15 Archers - Hawkeye, Musician, Light Armor
15 Archers - Hawkeye, Musician, Light Armor
24 Lothern Sea Guard - Full Command, Banner of Arcane Protection

Special: 475pts
8 Swordmasters - Full Command, Standard of Balance, Ironcourse Icon
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor - Full Command, Wailing Banner, Obsidian Trinket, Gem of Courage

Rare: 300 pts
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles


I'm planning on running Caradryan and the BSB with the Swordmasters, and the Prince on Steed with the Dragon Princes. I'm mainly trying to focus on defense with a couple of heavy hitters. Prolly gonna give Teclis Lore of Life, and maybe even the 2nd Mage Hero as well, with the first getting High Magic.

Please all, keep in mind I have forgotten so much about this game, so I could be doing something very very stupid here, 's why I'm asking for some critiquing

Appreciate the feedback and look forward to hearing from everyone

-Miko

If you're going to run Teclis, then you want all of the HE tricks for getting extra dice - one of your mages should have the Dusk Amulet-thing, and you want the Magic Standard of Making d3 Dice.

You may not need 2 mages in addition to Teclis, either - he's pretty brutal in his own right, and will often have the option of consuming all available power dice.

Pretty much agree with Janthkin's recommendations regarding magic. I would consider dropping a Mage (also, the first lvl2 can't have 2 arcane Items). Given that you're angling to get IFs from Teclis, your PD will go away pretty quickly. An annulian crystal Mage isn't bad if you want to disrupt your opponent's Magic Phase.

BSB - given how easy it will be to get Steadfast over most of your units, I wouldn't bother too much with the Battle Banner (it's lost a lot of its potency). Instead, invest in the Armor of Caledor and maybe the Guardian Phoenix to keep this guy alive (you really want those re-rolls).

From my experience so far, Swordmasters really need to be in bigger numbers to make sure there're enough left alive once they reach close combat. If you can find points to buff up this unit (15+ min, I would say) they'll probably have more survivability. Also, I wouldn't bother with the Standard of Balance and instead opt for more numbers.

Dragon Princes - these guys should be run as small, command-less units or larger units with more protection.

I don't know what models you have available, but you're really lacking the numbers to put up much resistance at the moment (and for 'ard Boyz, you're gonna be hit hard). Cutting out some of the more excessive heroes will help (drop a Mage and Prince) free up points for other units.

A Banner of Sorcery will provide extra consistency to your Magic Phases (You're looking at 2D6 + 2D3 per turn).


Hope this helps.

wow, good catch with the mage, I completely spaced giving him 2 arcane items... I prolly will drop the second mage tho, after considering that I can use those points likely better in other things.

I was really thinking that giving Teclis Lore of Life would keep the Swordmasters alive, is this not viable??? I was also looking at having the BSB in there to help the Swordmasters win battle results against units with more ranks, is this not effective any more???

I'm also not sure what you mean by

Dragon Princes - these guys should be run as small, command-less units or larger units with more protection.

How can I give them more protection by taking away the Prince and Command Unit???

As far as models go, I have 8 more Swordmasters, a handful of Silver Helms, 16 White Lions and command for them, and most all of the lords and heroes, including dragons...

and yeah, I should be able to fit the banner of sorcery in, and am kicking myself for not trying harder to do that before...

well good thing with teclis is that he can choose the lore before games. I personally choose lore of the heavens a lot and throw comets everywhere. Against heaver armor choose lore of metal for big ogre like armies use lore of shadow etc...

I usually take a banner and champion for my Dragon princes along with the banner of ellyrion (must have)
My problem with a heavy hitting DRagon princes with princes is that if they get in the sights of cannons they'll be doomed. Low numbers= easy target. Lost a 5 man unit with a prince and a mage in one round against dwarfs because of this multi barrel cannons.

Give a mage a jewel of dusk for +1 PD

I also agree on the model count issue. In 'ard boys armies will have enough models to overwhelm you.
Drop Caradryan add 10x swordmasters/white lions/ phoenix guard
Drop a Mage add 10x swordmasters/ white lions/ pheonix guard

Archers do not need a command squad in my opinion or even light armor. Trim the points and add more archers. Keep them on your board edge and they'll be out of range of most stuff.

-Again all in my opinion. Good luck this year

miko3ed wrote:I was really thinking that giving Teclis Lore of Life would keep the Swordmasters alive, is this not viable??? I was also looking at having the BSB in there to help the Swordmasters win battle results against units with more ranks, is this not effective any more???

The problem with small sized units of Swordmasters is that, as a whole, they'll be taking a lot more hits, overall, from shooting, magic and combat. Lore of Life is nice, but it can only go so far. From the games I've played in 8th Edition so far, you want to have more bodies on the table to be able to take the damage. Remember, every unit fights in 2 ranks now - 8 Swordmasters and a BSB really won't be enough to avoid the attacks hitting them back. And with a 5+ Save and T3 on the Swordmasters, they won't last long enough for you to use Lore of Life on. Also, I would imagine that if you were taking Teclis, you would be trying to get the most mileage out of him by using big, nasty offensive spells against your opponent's units.

How can I give them more protection by taking away the Prince and Command Unit???

Sorry for the ambiguity. The problem with the Prince is that he's waaay too many points for what you're going to get from him, and even then loses a lot of his potency once you extend past the first turn of combat. He's ~250 points at the moment which, imo, is simply too many points that could be invested in bulking up some of your troops so that you can lose some models without too much worry.

As I said, there're two options with these guys:
1) 5 Dragon Princes, no command, no Prince. At 150 points, you can risk losing them without it being a major drain to your forces. You can't hit any big units, but they're fast, can be used as warmachine hunters and can lend some support to your combat blocks. These guys have less protection, BUT they are somewhat expendable.

2) 10+ Dragon Princes, w/ Full Command. Big and expensive, but those extra 5+ models cost less than your Prince and give you 5+ more attacks on the charge, let you negate rank bonuses, and give your Dragon Princes more bodies to let them take some hits without losing too much of their own hitting power. You still don't want to charge head-long with these guys, but they'll cause a lot of hurt. Also, the Wailing Banner really isn't quite as good as it seems given how nerfed Fear/Terror rules are. The Drakemaster is a good candidate for the Amulet of Light.

As far as models go, I have 8 more Swordmasters, a handful of Silver Helms, 16 White Lions and command for them, and most all of the lords and heroes, including dragons....

I would ditch the Prince and that second mage to fit in those 8 more Swordmasters and your White Lions. The White Lions are a decent option for holding the Banner of Sorcery.

Liquidice281 wrote:Give a mage a jewel of dusk for +1 PD

The Jewel of Dusk isn't necessary, given that between the Banner of Sorcery and Teclis, you get an average of +4 dice per Magic Phase (total average of around ~11 PD per turn). You'd be better off with a Lvl2 with the Seerstaff so that you can choose your support spells.

Drop Caradryan add 10x swordmasters/white lions/ phoenix guard

Asides the issues that his collection of models is limited, Caradryan's actually a decent choice to keep in the list since he makes an excellent bodyguard for Teclis in the event that the opponent gets into CC with Teclis' unit.

Lots of good info, thanks much guys!!! I really appreciate it

Having been out of the game so long I was a bit disappointed that there are no longer stats for Alarielle, the Everqueen and her handmaidens :-/ (Yes, that is how long it has been since I played ),,, that said, being able to post and get info here on Dakka is awesome


So yeah, back to the topic at hand. Unfortunately, I don't have 10 DPs, I could prolly buy the three more figs I needed to do that, but I'm already a bit over budget with picking up alot of the new things I have in the past few days.

Something I noticed I forgot to include in my list, I actually have 10 Phoenix Guards (w/ command) coming in this week from my local game store. Given the current state of my collection, should I put them in place of the swordmasters and go for a more defensive setup, maybe with another couple of bolt throwers??? I am already in the works of trimming down my lords/heroes. I am going to have at least one lvl2 mage tho with the seerstaff, and likely give him Lore of Life, I might make him mounted as well, to give him mobility.

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but aren't you supposed to only have max 25% of your total points invested in characters in 8th?

nielsen333 wrote:Sorry if it's been mentioned, but aren't you supposed to only have max 25% of your total points invested in characters in 8th?

Not characters - the limits are on Heroes and Lords, and they're separate limitations.

Janthkin wrote:If you're going to run Teclis, then you want all of the HE tricks for getting extra dice - one of your mages should have the Dusk Amulet-thing, and you want the Magic Standard of Making d3 Dice.

You may not need 2 mages in addition to Teclis, either - he's pretty brutal in his own right, and will often have the option of consuming all available power dice.

After re-reading everything, the only trick that adds to his dice that he can use is the Banner of Sorcery, everything else is model specific... aka jewel of dusk, annulian crystal, powerstone

What I see in your list, is too many toys, command unit upgrades, etc.... And I'm not a fan of Lotherin Seaguard, but I suppose having one unit of them in stead of spearmen isn't too bad. If you have lots of silverhelms, do a few conversions, I took dark elf dragon insignias and put them on the sheilds of my silver helms... instant dragon princes!

Interesting idea about converting Silver Helms to Dragon Princes,,, I might have to look into that further...

I do have a curiosity question, does Teclis have special rules for determining when he chooses his spell lore??? The text seems a little ambiguous. Do I get to pick his lore when I see what my opponent is? I was under the impression that I had to pick it when I put my army list on paper...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I see in your list, is too many toys, command unit upgrades, etc.... And I'm not a fan of Lotherin Seaguard, but I suppose having one unit of them in stead of spearmen isn't too bad.

I thought I was being a little conservative by only putting musicians in my archer units (only really did it because they're cheap). The units with full command all get some pretty decent benefit from their individual command troops, usually a cheaper than normal unit extra attack, the ability to carry a unit affecting magic item, banner for an extra +1 on combat resolution, etc... For the costs they all seem worth it in the sense that I am doing everything I can to keep my limited number of units alive and as combat worthy as possible. I don't really have any throw away units, so I understand I need to be as strategic as possible on what battles I put the troops in, but it also means I don't really have any shock troops to use as delayers... Which is why I'm considering the Pheonix Guard or White Lions, as they are some of the toughest HEs available...

Teclis can choose his lore at the army table before the game and can be changed from game to game

miko3ed wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I see in your list, is too many toys, command unit upgrades, etc.... And I'm not a fan of Lotherin Seaguard, but I suppose having one unit of them in stead of spearmen isn't too bad.

I thought I was being a little conservative by only putting musicians in my archer units ........

Your list seemed small to me only because I had 30 spearmen, 40 archers, 2 x 5 dragon princes, 14 phoneix guard, 10 sword masters, 3 bolt throwers, an eagle, and teclis with a bsb, and 6 support casters (I was abusing lore of light against demons, but the teclis and the laser light show might be good against a lot of armies, except horde armies, of course if Teclis gets to choose his lore as the army book suggests at the start of each game, then its a great set up) which is like 115 models to your 80? Maybe I'm just being a size queen. I know that my spearmen was only one of two units with banners and they held up great against a unit of 20+ daemonettes and the only unit to have full command, they had the lion standard as well, the phoenix guard had the banner of sorcery. I almost didn't need muscians to reform any units in my last game. I may be wrong, maybe I am running my army too naked.

Your BSB can have a regular weapon?

Yes. HE BSB's can have any weapon option, even with a magic banner. That's why putting him on a horse is such an attractive idea. Lance / GW and a 2+ armor save.

BSB on foot can quickly leave and join units, I think they are most useful without a magic banner and on foot where they can apply their mobility to provide the rerolls as needed.

I currently armed mine with dragon armor, sheild of charimsa, foebane, and a potion of strength (if I need to cut through armor).

So I managed to pick up some more figs and have amended my list

Lords: (475 pts)
Teclis

Heroes: (498 pts)
Caradryan
Noble - BSB, Great weapon, Longbow, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
Mage - lvl2, Silver Wand

Core: (757 pts)
22 LSG - Shields, Lion Standard
22 LSG - Shields
10 Archers

Special: (870 pts)
10 Phoenix Guard - FC, Banner of Sorcery
10 Dragon Princes - FC, Gleaming Penant (Yeah, prolly don't need it, just had 5 extra pts)
15 Swordmasters - FC, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Arcane Protection

Rare: (400 pts)
3 Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles


I know the unit sizes are someone small for 'ard boyz, but I don't have a whole lot of choices... I could wrangle up 10 more LSG, 13 more swordmasters, or a few more bolt throwers... Wish I had more PG :-/

I was tempted to knock the DP down to 5 or eliminate them altogether to add more SM and LSG, but I'm worried my eagles won't survive long enough to do much against my opponent's warmachines, so having the DP gives me a little heavy hitting mobility...

Thoughts???