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This is an issue that recently came up in a game. Throgg, King of Trolls from Warriors of Chaos has four modes of attack that came into play.

A) Throgg is allowed to use his copious vomit rule make D6 Str 5 hits that ignore armor saves in hand to hand.
B) Once a game may use Copious Vomit as a breath weapon at Str 5 and ignores armor saves.
C) As his normal melée attack he can make 5 Str 6 attacks at his normal weapon skill.
D) A stomp attack at initiative 1 and str 6.

Here's where the confusion comes in. Under the new rules for breath weapons you may use them once per game either in melée or as a shooting attack. If used in melée you may make one additional attack at the users initiative for 2D6 hits. One side of the argument is that Throgg can use his breath weapon in hand to hand for the 2D6 hits like any other breath weapon and still make his normal attacks and his stomp at the end. The other side argues that Copious Vomit says how it is used in melée (d6 hits instead of attacking normally). I've checked the errata and last I looked there was none for this character under the new rules. How would you interpret the rules? Which of those 4 attacks would be allowed to be combined in one round of combat? So far the argument is B, either A or C and D on one side and on the other side of the debate is either A or C and D.

If you use it as a breath weapon, you use it as the rulebook states - 2D6 hits. That is because it is one time only, not every turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you use it as a breath weapon, you use it as the rulebook states - 2D6 hits. That is because it is one time only, not every turn.

From what i gather its some sort of special, multyuse, breath weapon, so the army book rules would trump the BRB.

It isnt though - it allows you to use his vomit as a close combat, but variable, attack every round at D6 hits, but this is NOT a breath weapon attack -as that would have been meaningless in 7th.

It ALSO allows you to use it as a breath weapon, and as such that can now be used in CC for 2D6 hits, but only once per game.

This isnt a case of army book "trumping" the rulebook, but the rulebook altering how a weapon class (breath weapon) works, giving it additional capabilities. The D6 hits usage is NOT overriding your ability to, once per game, use it as 2D6 hits in CC, because it does not say so. The BRB is here more specific than the army book, as it provides a general case that is not overidden by the army book.

Oooooh, ok.

Yea, here's how it works.

Every turn in close combat, Throgg can either use his 5 attacks, or do a d6 vomit. He also gets his stomp.

In addition, to that, once per game, he can use his breath weapon in close combat (if he hasn't used it already as ranged) for an additional 2d6.

So what makes a "breath weapon" attack? I mean, in my Bretonnian army, I can give a paladin (which I do) the Heartwood Lance. This allows him to make a "breath" attack once per game at S3. Would I be able to use this in CC for 2D6 S3 attacks? Although, I don't have the book in front of me, it's not worded as a "Breath Weapon" attack. I believe it says something like, " The bearer may, once per game, make a ranged attack that uses the flame template, measured from the tip of the lance. Something like that. I know that it's not called a breath weapon and it's not FAQ'd or Erratad either.

What do you think?

So far, I've never used it in CC as I'm not exactly sure how this works and I always give my opponent the benfit of the doubt. Anyone know?

Thanks Dakkaites

all breath weapons use the template, not all template weapons are breath weapons.

so unless your betonian magic weapon says it is a breath weapon, or follows the breath weapon rules, you cant.

Throgg has a proper Breath Weapon that causes 2D6 hits in melee or uses the template. This is a completely separate attack from his melee attack (vomit) that does D6 hits at S5 that ignores armor; this replaces the normal 1 melee (vomit) attack that all Trolls get.

So in summary, Throgg may choose to either use his vomit to get D6 attacks at S5 that ignores armor saves OR get his standard 5 attacks at S6 from his profile. He may then use his Breath Weapon once per game, and after everything make 1 S6 stomp.