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Dear DakkaDakka,

I've been having a great time hanging around here while I'm painting. I'm learning a lot about the 40K Universe, and how the community of gamers (hooray for you all!) perceives it.

Now, I haven't read the books very much at all. Can you help me with a subject I am pondering?

I've heard the Emperor never claimed to be God. In fact, the Lexicanum says that part of Horus' initial objections to the Emperor's retirement was that he suspected the Emperor was going to set himself up as a false God. Is this right? Now, the Lexicanum says the Crusades were in part to liberate mankind from 'false gods'. What then was the Emperor teaching mankind spiritually?

Now, whatever his intentions, The Emperor is revered as holy God by the Ecclesiarchy. Several of you here, and locally last night in conversations with my friends, have speculated that the Emperor would be most displeased by this turn of events.

Ah, this leads to so many questions, but I will ask this one:

If the Ecclesiarchy prevails as primary spiritual authority of the Imperium, what do you see happening?

Will the Emperor die eventually and mankind perish?
Will faith become reality, and the Emperor truly be God?
Is the Emperor in fact already God according to the 40K definition?

Is the Ecclesiarchy a beacon of light in the darkness or a dangerous hindrance to the Emperor's evolution? Are we fulfilling the Emperor's will in this twilight age of Armageddon, or damning humanity to extinction with foolish delusions?

Emperor forgive me, I love you, and I love your church. But I must know...'the truth...'!

As a Witch Hunter's player you can imagine that it's pretty important to me to know if the Sisters of Battle are doing the Emperor's will or not. I take solace in the fact that one of their number actually stood before the Emperor, and presumably had audience with Him just before deposing Vandire the wicked. We do not know what happened in His presence, but that marked the glorious new beginning of the Sisters of Battle as we know them today. I desperately hope that this means the Emperor loves the Sisters and approves of their tireless work and endless zeal, and most of all their beautiful faith. But I might never know...

---Emperor bless and cherish you!
---- Frankie

OH GOD YOU'VE JUST POURED OUT A TON OF PETROL INTO WATER PISTOLS AND GIVEN EVERYONE A LIGHTER!!!

You're problem is kinda the point of the Ecclesiarchy. They're meant to be both the benevolent spark of Hope as well as a bureaucratic quagmire of Religious Fundamentalism.

This seems like a topic that has recently been talked to death several times...

It's a hard subject because the GW-guys made it hard. As I see it, the Emperor was and is a very great psyker, one of THE greatest, in the fact that he isn't at his full power into this day, but still his will guides the faith of billions of men and women AND brings the pulse of the Holy Astronomicon to the blessed servants that are the Navis Nobilite. However, in my heretical belief the Holy Emperor isn't... God. A great psyker, to be sure, but not a god. He inspires great heroism in the Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Astartes, as well as all servants of the Imperium, from the lowest of Adept to the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor never intended to be worshipped as God, he even reprimanded Lorgar before the Horus Heresy for his demagougery of His truly awesome powers, which later turned Lorgar to the Ruinous Powers and dragged half the Astartes with him in a plot for revenge, but there are still those loyal Astartes who lives by the Emperors edict that he shall not be worshipped as such. I myself believe that... wait a minute, there is a knock on the door, who can that be... OH SHI*BLAM*

It is my personal belief that the emprah is a political tool of an idea. Here on Earth back in real world time, we set up gods, popes, religious leaders of various forms, in order to keep the masses superstitious and therefore obedient. For all we know he is long dead and its the 1000 psykers sacrificed every day to the golden throne that keep the cork on the warp. High Lords of Terra (aka Jervis and Rick) are the only ones that know the truth... I look at it like our crusades... god told us to do it... REALLY? GOD TOLD YOU TO? or did you want to claim more land and money and name god as your reason? hmm... ecclesiarchy are about as infallable as the spainish inquisition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
then again... that's why I don't often play hoomaans... we were here long ago. we saw it happen. heh eh heh.

The occasional marine foray of absolutist religious zeal that is a SMurf or sirsters army can be a fun idea to doodle around with from time to time (plus it's nice to have power armor once in a while) I get a kick out of proclaiming my holy authority under the banner of a mutant bird whilst purging the mutants, hetetics, and xenos... but for the most part I stick to my Eldar. They know their gods are dead, they don't have to speculate.

Hi DakkaDakka,
You're probably right, Caterpeylius, now that you mention it, I surely can't be the first to ask that question here. I should have done a thorough search through old threads.

I like the idea that the Ecclesiarchy is both light and lies. It's 'realer' that way, isn't it?

Though, I find it maddening not to have a definite answer from GW, ha ha! Like that great line in 'Princess Bride'

Inigo: "Please. I must know."
Wesley: " Get used to disappointment."

Thanks for answering you guys, you are great!
--- Frankie

Here's the cool thing about 40k: belief makes reality.

If an Ork puts together a few pieces of scrap metal and some duct tape in a shape that roughly resembles a gun, loads it with something that roughly resembles ammunition, and honestly believes that it will fire, it will.

Now this is because Orks all have a strong (relatively speaking) psychic aura that makes this possible.

But everyone in the 40k universe with the exception of the Tyranids, the Tau, and possibly the Necrons, has a psychic aura. Small and insignificant, but present nonetheless.

Therefore I believe that if the trillions of citizens of the Imperium truly believe the Emperor is a god made flesh, he is.

That said, there have been whispers of the Golden Throne beginning to fail, which would most likely result in the death of the Emperor. I'm looking forward to this, since a fragmented Imperium would make for some very juicy fluff.

Spoiling this for those who have not read the first 3 books of the Horus Heresy...

The Emperor may be a political tool to some, but he is not dead. He still effects the galaxy of 40k.

Melissia wrote:The Emperor may be a political tool to some, but he is not dead. He still effects the galaxy of 40k.

But for how long? That's the interesting question.

If/when the Emprah dies, humanity shall die, for Deamons shall flood the galaxy, and humans are good hosts.

Oh, and some Mod should move this to the 40k background area.

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Emperor may be a political tool to some, but he is not dead. He still effects the galaxy of 40k.

But for how long? That's the interesting question.

In the 40k universe, something with that much power does not simply "go away", even when he/she/it dies. What effects the death will have on the Emperor I don't know, nor does anyone else, but I think it's rather silly to say that there will suddenly be a void where he once was.

While that might (arguably, I don't think it does-- their existence is bound to continue in the Warp) happen to human psykers, the Emperor certainly isn't human anymore, after well over fourty thousand years of existence, constantly changing his form and developing his power to the point where he is able to confront the Dark Gods themselves and scare them enough to agree to work together against him, bending all their will towards destroying him.

This is true, but as long as his effect on the Imperium and the galaxy in general eventually changes, I'll be happy.

Oh, it certainly would change. Especially if he stopped lighting the Astronomican. That would rather slow down Imperial travel, possibly fatally so (mind you, Navigators don't need that light to navigate through the warp, but it damned sure helps).

The Emperor had a took a very hard line against religon, gods and superstition. However, ironically he may have subsequently become a god due to 100 million, billion people believing he is.

I doubt it. Belief doesn't really make things true in 40k. Even if you're a psyker, you don't just have to believe, you have to bend your will towards changing it towards what you believe, and then you have to draw on enough power from the warp to make the change possible.

Guitardian wrote: [...] but for the most part I stick to my Eldar. They know their gods are dead, they don't have to speculate.

Ynnead says hi.

Melissia wrote:I doubt it. Belief doesn't really make things true in 40k. Even if you're a psyker, you don't just have to believe, you have to bend your will towards changing it towards what you believe, and then you have to draw on enough power from the warp to make the change possible.

But there are plenty of examples of psykers or beings with psychic auras not even intending to shape the world around them, but they do anyway.

Look at Orks.

Your average Ork's psychic aura is a mere fraction of that of a psyker, and yet they shape their technology and entire kultur with it completely unconsciously.

I say unconsciously because when you put some "spinny bits" together with some "clever gubbins" and "electric know-wots" and get a gun that shoots tiny goblins through hell, you're using that psychic aura unconsciously.

Melissia wrote:I doubt it. Belief doesn't really make things true in 40k. Even if you're a psyker, you don't just have to believe, you have to bend your will towards changing it towards what you believe, and then you have to draw on enough power from the warp to make the change possible.

Then how do you explain Faith powers from the Sisters? They are not psykers and their belief is somehow empowerign to them. I don't think the Emperor is looking out for each them and using his psychic mojo to help them when they need it. Despite his power he's not that cognizant of the entire Galaxy. At least not on a personal level. Enough people on a Crusade might get his attention that he reanimate St Celestine or something like that but thats rare even for the Sisters.

Of course we are not talking about absolutes here and its just my belief, but I am curious as to what you think.

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:I doubt it. Belief doesn't really make things true in 40k. Even if you're a psyker, you don't just have to believe, you have to bend your will towards changing it towards what you believe, and then you have to draw on enough power from the warp to make the change possible.

But there are plenty of examples of psykers or beings with psychic auras not even intending to shape the world around them, but they do anyway.

Look at Orks.

Your average Ork's psychic aura is a mere fraction of that of a psyker, and yet they shape their technology and entire kultur with it completely unconsciously.

I say unconsciously because when you put some "spinny bits" together with some "clever gubbins" and "electric know-wots" and get a gun that shoots tiny goblins through hell, you're using that psychic aura unconsciously.

Most Orkish technology works regardless of who is using it. It's only the most advanced technology that requires their gestalt psychic fields, and even then, that effect is unique to the Orkoid races.

Melissia wrote:I doubt it. Belief doesn't really make things true in 40k. Even if you're a psyker, you don't just have to believe, you have to bend your will towards changing it towards what you believe, and then you have to draw on enough power from the warp to make the change possible.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Guitardian wrote: [...] but for the most part I stick to my Eldar. They know their gods are dead, they don't have to speculate.

Ynnead says hi.

yes perfect timing. Ynnead is an example of something coming true because a psychically active race believes it. And there are far, far less Eldar than in the Imperium of Man.

Ynnead is a prediction by Farseer Eldick that Ynnead will awake and kick Slaanesh butt when all eldar die. It's not a widely held Eldar belief at all, at least not outside of Ulthwe. At most it's a rumour or myth, similar to the one about Isha being held captive by Nurgle (which is only told by one Craftworld as well).

Ynnead is a burgeoning Eldar God being created by all of the eldar souls stuck in the deathles state of the infinity circuits. It's not a religon its just something that's happening. Once again belief and souls having an effect in the immaterium which then again has an effect in the materium.

Yes, that's what one of the craftworlds think, or so he says.

Do you have a source that proves it isn't?

who me? It's in the eldar codex, not as being an Eldar's words but as a narrator. Information on Eldar gods can get uninterestingly detailed. There was scores of them and reading about them can feel like reading a can a dry mythology textbook. Ynnead is interesting because he is yet to be born and can be the Eldar's salvation.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:who me? It's in the eldar codex, not as being an Eldar's words but as a narrator. Information on Eldar gods can get uninterestingly detailed. There was scores of them and reading about them can feel like reading a can a dry mythology textbook. Ynnead is interesting because he is yet to be born and can be the Eldar's salvation.

Again. It's not a definite piece of canon. Just like the Star Child. It's simply a prediction that Eldrad made (and even then he admits it was stretched and open to millions of possibilities). It's not a common concensus amongst the Eldar, unlike the idea of the Phoenix Lords rallying for the final battle where all Eldar are finnaly killed. That much is legend, Ynnead is a rumour at most.