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Hey everyone- I just started a guard army and have a few logistics questions about heavy weapons teams and ratling snipers.

In terms of LOS- ratling snipers and heavy weapons teams are low to the ground- many of the pieces of cover I usually play with are designed for a standing unit so the tiny snipers and hvy weapons teams cannot see over them (or just the top of their head peaks out- but the gun platform is below) Can they shoot from behind this cover if the gun on the weapon platform cannot see over it?

In addition, a newb IG question. Can hvy weapons teams in a platoon alone contest an objective? I couldn't find it in the codex.

With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

Everyone purchased as part of the infantry platoon is part of a troops choice. With the exception of the chimeras they all can claim objectives. Anyone can contest objectives.

Raxmei wrote:With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

+1

The model has to be able to draw sight to the target. This has its ups and downs. For small models and low models it can be a real pain, but on the other side, they are easier to hide from incoming fire.

Raxmei wrote:With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

Everyone purchased as part of the infantry platoon is part of a troops choice. With the exception of the chimeras they all can claim objectives. Anyone can contest objectives.

So not from the gun from the models head? so would it be a good idea to swap the legs off normal guardsmen so one of the guys on the model is standing.

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Raxmei wrote:With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

Everyone purchased as part of the infantry platoon is part of a troops choice. With the exception of the chimeras they all can claim objectives. Anyone can contest objectives.

So not from the gun from the models head? so would it be a good idea to swap the legs off normal guardsmen so one of the guys on the model is standing.

Correct, but doing that is modelling for advantage and generally frowned upon.

Raxmei wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Raxmei wrote:With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

Everyone purchased as part of the infantry platoon is part of a troops choice. With the exception of the chimeras they all can claim objectives. Anyone can contest objectives.

So not from the gun from the models head? so would it be a good idea to swap the legs off normal guardsmen so one of the guys on the model is standing.

Correct, but doing that is modelling for advantage and generally frowned upon.

Ah, ok. I wanted to do this to at least one of the guys in a heavy weapons squad simply on the basis that it may look pretty good. Which i may well still do but not use it as a way of bending the rules to my benifit. Coz yeah that kinda stuff winds me up.

ah, modeling- then it seems like there's a much greater benefit to have one guy standing in a hvy weapons squad and to have ratling snipers modeled on a soap box or something.

Since in 5th if ANY part of the model is covered then they count as being in cover-right? So if your models boots are covered by a rock then they're in cover- correct? (and if 50% of the squad is covered they receive a cover save).

The rulebook defines exactly what counts as the body, and feet dont count if memory serves...

Feet are not mentioned either way.

But most people take "head, torso, legs and arms" to be inclusive of hands, feet, helmet, etc...

Especially when the list of specific exclusions is considered "weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament".

The one glaring omission from both example lists is backpacks.

I dont consider it inclusive of feet or hands, and that seems true of a lot of local players.

Your arm does not include your hand, same idea for legs.

You're taking the stance then that that list is exhaustive and not an example?

And you consider feet to fit better in the category containing banners and antenna than in the category containing arms and legs?

Can I also take it that you feel bikes are not target-able but horses are?

It defines a complete list as it omits "e.g.", therefore you are only given permission to treat it as complete.

Scott-S6 wrote:Can I also take it that you feel bikes are not target-able but horses are?

Actually, if you're trying to incapacitate the infantryman thereon, yes.

You shoot a rifle at an armored bike, it may bounce off the armor.

You shoot a rifle at a horse, you'll kill the horse.

In the context of cavalry/bikers, you aim at the infantryman anyway.

In the immortal words of Captain Malcom Reynolds, "Shoot the man, not the horse. A dead horse is cover. A live horse is a great pile of panic."

This is unfortunately the problem with true line of sight.

I'm going to make some rough riders, but I'm seriously considering modeling them in little go-karts so that their profile is as low to the ground as is possible (especially compared to a horse).

I'd really like to think that GW had both eyes open when they abandoned the old terrain rules in favor of TLoS. I heard tales of woe of "crouchafexes" in older rules editions. Looks like they're here again...

I've never had any TLoS issues with my heavy weapons. It goes without saying that you should deploy them in elevated positions as it gives exactly the same benefits as it would on a real battlefield; better visiblity and firing lanes.

Obviously everyone's terrain collection is different so it's knd of subjective, but as long as the model itself can 'see' the weapon can fire, even if the gun itself is 'blocked' by terrain. Consider that the crew are actually surveying the battlefield, taking into account what they can see prior to swinging their gun into position and opening fire.

L. Wrex

Raxmei wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Raxmei wrote:With infantry models you draw LOS from the eyes. If you can't draw LOS from eye level then that model can't shoot.

So not from the gun from the models head? so would it be a good idea to swap the legs off normal guardsmen so one of the guys on the model is standing.

Correct, but doing that is modelling for advantage and generally frowned upon.

Well, not to sound too competetive or start flame wars, but I don't see how doing that's a bad thing. It rewards creativity, and it does make it that much easier for the enimey to see as well.

I have a few standing heavy weapons teams, and to be honest, I modeled them that way without any consideration of line of sight. I just thought they looked better that way. I really don't think I'd want to play with anyone who'd make a big deal about modeling for advantage just because I thought I'd mix it up with a few standing guardsmen legs.

Ailaros wrote: I heard tales of woe of "crouchafexes" in older rules editions. Looks like they're here again...

That's the thing, though... everyone hears 'tales' of this sort of thing... but very few people personally encounter it on the table.

Modelling for advantage has been a potential issue in every single edition of the game... including 4th edition with it's TLOS/abstract area terrain hybrid LOS rules. People have been complaining about the potential abusiveness of modelling your Wraithlord in a crouching position for longer than they've been called Wraithlords. But almost nobody actually does it... because doing so does nothing more than ensure that your pool of opponents dries up in short order.


To return somewhat to the original topic, very few opponents are going to have an issue with you mixing some standing guys through your heavy weapons teams, just as they would not have a problem with you scattering kneeling guys through your other units. Modelling them on, say, giant rocks might get you some evil looks... but just changing the pose of a human-sized model has very, very little practical effect on the game.

It should also be noted that if your models are in base contact with a "linear piece of terrain, such as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a fence" ignore it for line of sight (BGB, p22), so it's quite possible to have a model like a Ratling sniper or HW team sit behind a barrier they can't even see over and give no cover save to the enemy while getting a cover save themselves (and in some cases can't be seen at all!).

Amongst my friends, we've house ruled this to include the low wall at the top of most of our larger ruins, as well as windows in ruins etc, otherwise it becomes too hard to see out of a ruin at times.

Cheexsta wrote:It should also be noted that if your models are in base contact with a "linear piece of terrain, such as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a fence" ignore it for line of sight (BGB, p22), so it's quite possible to have a model like a Ratling sniper or HW team sit behind a barrier they can't even see over and give no cover save to the enemy while getting a cover save themselves (and in some cases can't be seen at all!).

That rule actually refers to a barrier that they can see over...

You're right, of course; I don't know how I missed that. I'll blame lack of sleep, that always works

If you are happy to houserule, just play that the unit can shoot over any terrain they could see over if the figures were modeled standing up. There's generally a standing up guy in every unit (eg my ratling unit has some crouching to fire, while some are standing up) so its generally not hard to figure out. It's a logical convention and if you are just playing with your mates I'm sure everyone will agree it is fair.

IG heavy weapons teams can be a bit tricker as the barrels can be quite low to the ground, in this case your firends may give you a bit of slack if the wall is just a touch too high. Otherwise just model some walls or barricades that are low enough, or cut some crenellations or fire ports in them :p

As far as more competitive gaming against random people goes, I have no idea, because I just play with my regular gaming buddies and we are all awesome people.

In a competitive setting, you always measure LOS from the head, per RAW. If your guys are kneeling, they have more trouble seeing over obstacles. The trade-off is that the enemy will also have more trouble seeing them.