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So me and my mate have decided to get into WHFB, he's going to run dwarves while I'm interested in High Elves. The question is, though, what do I buy? I haven't even gotten the rulebook yet, but I assume that the new box set with HE and Skaven (Blood Island something) would be a good buy? I guess I'd have to trade the skaven part to someone else, but that shouldn't be impossible. Anyhow, what do I buy for HE?

Pheonix Guard are the best special troops IMHO. At least one bock of 20 will be a great help.

Eagles are good for taking down war machines, and at 50 points a pop they are a great deal.

Might as well throw this in here too, I've been lurking about a bit and found some guys in different forums saying that HE will get a new army book soon. Is that true, or is it just rumors? If it's true I guess I'll just wait until the new one...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Might as well throw this in here too, I've been lurking about a bit and found some guys in different forums saying that HE will get a new army book soon. Is that true, or is it just rumors? If it's true I guess I'll just wait until the new one...

No new army book, just a wave of new models.

Incidentally, come November, there should be plastic versions of most, if not all, of the High Elf Elite infantry.

The upcoming Starter set will be good for models, though you'd need 2-3 of the sets to have enough of any of those troops. The High Elf Army Box (the BIG one) is a very good deal if you can get your hands on it (may be GW direct only) and gets you a nice selection of everything you may need in basic High Elf army. The November Wave will also see a new version of the Battalion box.

Unless you're very keen on starting up immediately, it may be worth waiting until the fall for all the new models (no pictures of them yet, as far as I know). Hopefully, the new plastics won't be priced like the Empire Greatswords.

The biggest conundrum HE players have right now is what core choices to take. Some people think all sea guard, others think spearmen and bowmen. I prefer the latter, but it's debatable which is best.

Phoenix Guard are strong and it's a toss up between whether or not you take White Lions or Sword Masters as your elite killing machines. A lot of people are going with white lions as they are slightly tougher when it comes to survivability.

Most people agree that chariots, dragons, and bolt throwers aren't worth the points any more.

You should also plan on taking at least four eagles.

Not saying you're all wrong, I'm just interested, how is 1 attack at S4 strong? They're 15 points a model.

White Lions get a respectable (edit) 3+ save from shooting and in combat they get ASF re-rollable S6 hits from 2 ranks (3 if horde.)

I can see Phoenix maybe being better for just babysitting a wizard with the 4+ ward save and avoiding combat.

Can't imagine how 1 attack S4 can compare to 1 attack S6 in combat though. Lions do crushing damage to chariots, cavalry, infantry, dragons, anything they touch. Phoenix do mediocre damage (even worse than basic Saurus warriors.)

Then swordmasters also do more than twice as much damage as Phoenix Guard. 2 attacks S5 compared to 1 attack S4. About 2-3 times as many enemies killed.

Do you include multiple tooled heroes with the PG to give them the damage output they don't have?

Although I DO agree that White Lions are better than Phoenix Guards, you are saying it all wrong.
White Lions get 3+ save from shooting.
White Lions may be better at hitting, sure. But the thing is, PGs are The Famous ANVIL, which means that they get charged (maybe even reduce enemy's WS to 1 but don't count on it) and they won't go away unless charged by for example 2x10 Knights. They have 5+ AS AND 4+ Ward, meaning that they won't die, while striking at (although not impressive by Elf Elite Infantry standards) S4. AND PGs have I6, meaning that they get to re-roll against most Elves and against WoC too.

I think pheonix guard are probably the best special, i play dwarfs and 1 hit with a grudgethrower shot on some white lions/swordmasters and there done for.

But not pheonix guard they just never die, so yeah they have less attacks than swordmasters and less strength than white lions but they will always make it across the board and are usually always the last thing left on the board.

If your main opponent is dwarves Phoenix guard and white lions may be your best bet. They are really good at shrugging off missile fire (for elves that is) and dwarves will bring A LOT of shooting. Dragon princes are a good choice but you need more than 5 to make them effective which kinda sucks because they are already pretty expensive and while you could opt for silver helms their expensive as well. You'll want eagles for sure you need something to disrupt/kill his warmachines fast before they reduce your army to rubble.

Phoenix Guard are pretty key at being tarpits and anvils. You coerce your opponent into charging them and then you flank charge next turn while they're stuck fighting your Phoenix Guard. Not all units are there to kill stuff and Phoenix Guard are extremely useful without doing any killing. Other units in HE don't do this very well because they're so squishy.

White Lions and Sword Masters are a matter of taste. Both have their advantages and disadvantages and it's all about which unit you're rather use.

I was thinking of getting into HE due to the new starter (and left overs from the old HE/Gobbo starter) and was curious why people don't think Chariots are up to snuff. I play Dwarves primarily and thus have no insight into such things.

"which means that they get charged (maybe even reduce enemy's WS to 1 but don't count on it) and they won't go away unless charged by for example 2x10 Knights."

Neither will White Lions. They're both stubborn AND strike first with rerollable hits needing 2+ to wound. They'll kill a pile of knights before knights get any attacks.
Against human knights, 5x4 PG doing the anvil thing kill 0.8 knights. 7-wide 20 lions kill 5.6 knights. The 2-4 WL who would've died take no damage because the knights and horses are gone, better than a 4+ ward save because it also generates combat res.

"You coerce your opponent into charging them and then you flank charge next turn while they're stuck fighting your Phoenix Guard."
And White Lions cost the same points, are Stubborn, and do so much damage that they should win combat, whereas PG do no damage. How would they fail at the same job?

"Phoenix Guard are extremely useful without doing any killing."
No. They're not useful at all without killing. They cost too much for a huge block of them to be used for SCR. Particularly if they suck so bad that apparently you need another whole combat unit to win them the combat. 2 units of White Lions / Swordmasters fight an enemy and it's even more dead.

"1 hit with a grudgethrower shot on some white lions/swordmasters and there done for. "
White Lions have a 3+ save vs. shooting, that's far from 1 hit uselessness. Although inferior defensively to the 5+/4+ of PG, WL/SM do more than twice as many kills in combat each, so you need at least twice as many PG to actually do anything in combat.
As for a S3 stonethrower, the exact same number of models die from a 3+ save or a 5+/4++ save. Thus, White Lions are amazingly resilient to default stone throwers.
A special S4 one would kill 20% more WL than PG (then again white lions often do 100% more dmg in combat.)

"AND PGs have I6, meaning that they get to re-roll against most Elves and against WoC too. "
Against chaos warriors, White Lions do massive damage while phoenix guards are limp noodles. So that point is moot. Against elves, PG do get 1 rerolled S4, which is probably still significantly worse than striking first with S6.

14 PG swing against AS5+ DE spearmen. 7 kills. 14 WL swing against them, 8 kills. So-so, but the WL can actually cut down cavalry, war hydras, dragons, chariots, etc. while still being Stubborn meaning even if half die they can hold.
They don't even need to take a LD test if they win combat from killing lots of chaos warriors where PG wouldn't. PS- DE players also have I6 black guard and witch elves who they can fight PG with, thus removing your re-roll to hit. BG get 2 S4 attacks each to your 1 S4 attack and cost 13 points instead of 15.

Also, everyone who sticks a character like a BSB in a combat unit usually gives it like a 2+ armor save. WL knock that down to 5+ instead of 3+ from PG.

Since 25% points on core is mandatory, you'll already have a large block of spearmen which can give rank bonus at times. I don't see the point of taking a unit that does no damage just because it has a 4+ ward save when HE are the only army that gained ASF great weapons AND free rerolled to-hits.

It'd be a whole different argument if White Lions had a 5+ save all the time and weren't stubborn, instead of having space marine 3+ armor against shooting attacks. Also, everyone mentions charging in front with PG and then flank-charging with WL or SM... then your opponent can just direct all his shooting and grudge throwers at the flanking force on Turn 1 and destroy it (since they have enough to nuke WL apparently), then you have only PG which cannot kill anything.

BloodGod, I really think you're failing to see that PG and WL's really don't share the same role in the High Elf army. Both are rather good, both have their disadvantages, but ultimately, they serve very different functions.

PG, as others have said, remain the best anvil choice in the list. They're not necessarily meant to slaughter whatever gets in combat with them. S4 isn't game-breaking, but it's not insignificant. These guys are meant to hold down a flank or just hold the lines until another unit can come in to help.

As you point out, White Lions do considerable more damage. No one is arguing that. But they're not intended to hold in protracted combats like the PG are. They hit hard in combat, but ultimately, you do not want them to stay in combat for more than a round or two, merely because that T3, 5+sv is a real detriment. Yes, the Lion Cloak helps them be more survivable against shooting, but the important issue is when they get INTO combat.

If you prefer to have White Lions, that's great, but please don't act as if the PG are completely worthless.

Every special in HE haves its perks and weakness. Personally I love PG and swordmasters, but I understand in the age of warmachine grand armies the usefullness of white lions.

It's all an arguement over survivability compared to kill ability. Leadership 9 and I: 6 kinda tips the hat to Phoenix guard in my opinion..

what do you get? A headache! roffels.

Buy what you want, play how you want.