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I'm interested in putting together a highly Greco-roman/Spartan themed SMurf army and while I've got conversion possibilities nailed down, I'm stuck on how to put together the army list itself. I'm looking for input. Sicarius seems to embody the epitome of this theme and I would like to use him, but I'm relatively inexperienced with Vanilla SM. If this just won't work at this points level, I'm open to using a Captain with standard combat getup (Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificier).

One idea I had was a Command Squad with 4 x PW/SS, modelling the Power Weapons as spears, but I'm not sure. As much as I would like to run a foot infantry army, transports are a must but Tactical Squads seem so lacklustre compared to Grey Hunters. Is it even possible to competitively run 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos? I've seen the following setup work reasonably well, but it's quite expensive for what it is: Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Combi-Melta and Missile Launcher, in Razorback with Las/Plas. Combat Squad the ML out for backfield deployment and fire support.

I'm open to pretty much any build or unit except non-Sicarius SC's, mass TH/SS terminators or Master of the Forge-based lists.

I don't know. What are your thoughts, Dakka? Help me out!

A generic Captain is better than Sicarius as for 200 points Sicarius adds little or nothing to the army.

You don't want Command Squad in combat, they will cost more than Terminators - perhaps model Terminators with twin spears and count them as lightning claws?

You could run a full Tactical Squad in a Rhino but either you'd have to lose the heavy or stay still to fire it.

I would recommend a half company with command squad+sicarius, 3 tacs in Rhinos, 1 assault and 1 dev squad.
The codex astartes is worth it to adapt on the field. Read the Guillaume-comments in the codex, they are good hints how to use the squads properly.

mercer wrote:A generic Captain is better than Sicarius as for 200 points Sicarius adds little or nothing to the army.

See, I sort of agree, but for that additional 40-odd points you get FNP, an Instant-Death attack and blanket LD10 for the whole army. And a Plasma Pistol but... y'know, who cares. But okay, generic Captain, care to elaborate on it? How to field? Best uses for? Just saying that Sicarius is poop isn't really that helpful when I'm asking how to make him work.

mercer wrote:You could run a full Tactical Squad in a Rhino but either you'd have to lose the heavy or stay still to fire it.

And this is even less helpful. You don't say?

Feel no pain is good but that's a benefit for the model, not the army. You need to hit with that special sword, not auto I.D so not that cool. Marines are LD9 anyway so you're only giving benefit and a marginal one to a few units anyway.

Captain, relic blade storm shield and aritificer armour makes a very tough termiantor like Captain who can do sweeping advance and has a S6 power weap.

You can't make Sicarius work. Why would I say how to make him work when he is crapola?

Your question was is it possible to competitively run full Tacticals in Rhinos. I've given you my answer, so no need for attitude and if you know that anyway then you have answered your own question.

I would haave thought hammernators were Ideal for the theme you're running. Turn the hammers into spears and use Gun drones (smoothed obviously) as the SS presto very greek looking Terminators.

Mecer is right Sicarius is a poor choice his benefits are marginal and he himself is no beat stick. The standard Captain config you put together would be more effective in CC no less effective for the army and a darn sight cheaper...

Mercer is right 10 man tacicals are in fact the back bone of most competitive SM builds. Personally I don't like them and don't have a single tac marine in my army but I run Pedro. Yes they aren''t near as good as Grey Hunters but at least they cost more points...

If you compare vanilla marines with puppies you will be disappointed. Puppies are miles better only through the use of Sp Characters like Pedro, Vulkan and Shrike can Vanillas gain any sort of advantage over puppies.

I am a huge fan of Captain Sicarius, but I will admit, I'm mostly a fan of the fluff and history in Space Marines stories that he is involved in.

At any rate, it is possible to make Sicarius a part of a fun and differently themed list. Whether it is competitive or not, that you will have to wait and see on the table top.

The abilities that he brings to the table are pretty good, and while they aren't used all the time (ie - Rolling twice to seize initiative), you can still make good use of his "Battle Hardened Soldiers", depending on who and what you're playing against. (My personal favorite tactic is giving them "Tank Hunter", and then Combat Squading them, leaving the Heavy Weapon in the back, and having the Sgt and Meltagun push forward in a Razorback. Now I've got 2 squads that can Tank Hunt, with a Heavy Weapon that can shoot potentially every turn. "Hello, Str 10 Lascannons!" )

Anyways, if you're going with a Roman/Spartan type of army, and insist on using Space Marines, Sicarius would be the way to go, fluff and strategy wise. Don't get me wrong, a regular Captain could be just as effective, but like I said, I'm a fan of Cato.

I would run a lot of Tactical Squads, and arm your Sgts with at least a Power Weapon of some variant. Devastator Squads, while very helpful, don't really suit a Spartan-like army, IMHO. Assault Squads would suit you better. If you take the full 10 man squad, I'd go with 2 Plasma Pistols (Flamers don't scream "SPARTA" to me, personally )

But if you're really thinking about Spartan-like Marines, and want an army that suits them further, Space Wolves would be a better choice than normal Space Marines. With their natural abilities to have Counter Attack and Acute Senses, there isn't any other MEQ that get closer to Spartans as Space Wolves do. Just sayin'...

Anyways, good luck, and I hope my advice helped!

Let's give it a go!!!

HQ
Cato Sicarius
200
Command Squad Dacius
Veteran Sergeant Dacius: Boltgun & Power Fist
Apothecary Venatio
Honoured Brother Gaius Prabian: Company Champion
Brother Malcian: Melta Gun
Company Standard Bearer Vandius.
Rhino:
215

Chaplain Elianu Trajan
100

ELITES
Dreadnought Agnathio
Multi-Melta & Dreadnought CC Arm

105

Dreadnought Utracius
Assault Cannon & Dreadnought CC Arm
115
TROOPS
Tactical Squad Vandar “The Victors” (10 man)
Sergeant Vandar: Boltgun
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
DT: Rhino
225

Tactical Squad Solinus “The Indomitable” (10 man)
Sergeant Solinus: Power Sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Heavy Bolter
DT: Rhino
220

Tactical Squad Manorian “The Shield Bearers” (10 man)
Sergeant Manorian: Power Sword & Plasma Pistol
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
240

Tactical Squad Octavian “Swords of Judgement” (10 man)
Sergeant Octavian: Boltgun & Power Fist
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
DT: Rhino
235

Tactical Squad Vorolanus “The Thunderbolts” (10 man)
Sergeant Vorolanus: Chainsword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
205

Tactical Squad Fennion “The Immortals” (10 man)
Sergeant Fennion: Chainsword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
205

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad Ixion “Macragge’s Avengers” (10 man)
Sergeant Ixion: Plasma Pistol & Power Fist
Flamer
240

Assault Squad Strabo “The Heroes of Seolopolis” (10 man)
Sergeant Strabo: Power Sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
215

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad Tirian “Guilliman’s Hammer” (10 man)
X 2 ML
X 2 HB
230

Devastator Squad Atavian “The Titan Slayers” (10 man)
Multi Melta
X 2 Lascannon
Plasma Cannon

280

TOTAL: 3030


that's the list AS PER THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE SECOND COMPANY IN THE CODEX

Corennus wrote:Let's give it a go!!!

HQ
Cato Sicarius
200
Command Squad Dacius
Veteran Sergeant Dacius: Boltgun & Power Fist
Apothecary Venatio
Honoured Brother Gaius Prabian: Company Champion
Brother Malcian: Melta Gun
Company Standard Bearer Vandius.
Rhino:
215

Chaplain Elianu Trajan
100

ELITES
Dreadnought Agnathio
Multi-Melta & Dreadnought CC Arm

105

Dreadnought Utracius
Assault Cannon & Dreadnought CC Arm
115
TROOPS
Tactical Squad Vandar “The Victors” (10 man)
Sergeant Vandar: Boltgun
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
DT: Rhino
225

Tactical Squad Solinus “The Indomitable” (10 man)
Sergeant Solinus: Power Sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Heavy Bolter
DT: Rhino
220

Tactical Squad Manorian “The Shield Bearers” (10 man)
Sergeant Manorian: Power Sword & Plasma Pistol
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
240

Tactical Squad Octavian “Swords of Judgement” (10 man)
Sergeant Octavian: Boltgun & Power Fist
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
DT: Rhino
235

Tactical Squad Vorolanus “The Thunderbolts” (10 man)
Sergeant Vorolanus: Chainsword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
205

Tactical Squad Fennion “The Immortals” (10 man)
Sergeant Fennion: Chainsword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
205

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad Ixion “Macragge’s Avengers” (10 man)
Sergeant Ixion: Plasma Pistol & Power Fist
Flamer
240

Assault Squad Strabo “The Heroes of Seolopolis” (10 man)
Sergeant Strabo: Power Sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
215

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad Tirian “Guilliman’s Hammer” (10 man)
X 2 ML
X 2 HB
230

Devastator Squad Atavian “The Titan Slayers” (10 man)
Multi Melta
X 2 Lascannon
Plasma Cannon

280

TOTAL: 3030


that's the list AS PER THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE SECOND COMPANY IN THE CODEX

It was also this list and exact photo in the codex that sold me on Sicarius, btw... It's just so epic looking, you can't help but love it.

I wouldnt play him at points less than 2000. Then Id make an 1800 point gunline list and add him to it. He replaces the Librarian which hurts then sucks another 100 points out of the list. Doubles your chances of seizing the initiative and one unit gets tankhunters. The is a boost to everyones leadership and he carries a decent weapon. Id still rather have Null Zone and a Hood though.

Instead of tank hunters you could use scout to get a tactical squad incl heavy into a nice piece of terrain like cental bunker complex

Equally if you infiltrate/hold reserve to outflank a tactical squad that messes with opponent deployment when that squad has loads of melta

I like him too

OK let's try and make a good list with Secarius....

He has an awesome Close Combat weapon so you really want him with a squad that's good at CC.
Command Squad with FnP looks like way to go.......ugh.

They're going to need support.......so some Assault Squads...

Tactical Squads to take objectives.

And Devastators to hold down fire.



HQ

Cato Sicarius
200

Command Squad
Company Champion
Company Standard
x 3 Power Swords
x 3 Storm Shields
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon

280

ELITES

Dreadnought
Plasma Cannon
T-L Autocannon
125

Legion of the Damned (5 man)
Combi-Melta & Powerfist
Meltagun
Multi-Melta

240

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino
210

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino
210

FAST ATTACK

Assault Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claws
Flamer
Flamer
Drop Pod
240

Assault Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claws
Flamer
Flamer
Drop Pod
240

Not sure how good this would be........but that Legion of the Damned melta squad......ouch.

Sicarius isn't great. I played a lot with him, and I struggled to stay north of about 60% wins in tournament play.

If you want a captain (aside from a biker), he's still your best option. Durable, decent combat, Rites of Battle, and a free veteran skill form an enticing pupu platter of reasons to field him.

You can have a tank hunting unit, you can outflank, you can infiltrate... you have a lot of options. He's still an improvment on one mediocre unit (captain), and improves another (tactical squad). There's a limit to how much you can dress up that kind of middling.

I see no reason to weight him down with Assault or devestator squads. I went super cheap gunline: tacs in razorbacks, dakka predators, AC dreadnoughts, a command squad with meltas... basically tons of shooting.

Okay, how about:

Sicarius 200

5 Sternguard, 4 Combi-meltas, Rhino, 180
5 Sternguard, 4 Combi-meltas, Rhino, 180

Tactical Squad, Combi-melta, Meltagun, Lascannon, Rhino 230 (Tank Hunters)
Tactical Squad, Combi-melta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino 220
Scout Squad, BP/CCW, Meltabomb 80

Land Speeder Typhoon 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 90
Land Speeder Storm, Heavy Flamer, 60

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters, 85
Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters, 85

1500/1500

Put Pedri Kantor in that list and it would be cheaper and better...

It would give you the points to give that Scout Sarge a PF and make that unit effective. I've had such a unit wipeout a squad of 6 Strikng Scorpions on the the charge without taking a casualty!

Whilst you'd gain 10 more scoring bodies. And a +1 attack bubble.

FlingitNow wrote:Put Pedri Kantor in that list and it would be cheaper and better...

While that may be the case, this thread is named "How to build a list around Sicarius?". I would also disagree with using Pedro, as I find Combat Tactics more useful than Stubborn. I'm not worried about lack of scoring bodies, as I have 25 in a possible 5 units. Including one squad to make last-turn objective grabs.

I agree with your assessment on the Scout Squad. My ideal setup for these is PF/Combi-Flamer, Meltabomb in a Heavy Flamer LSS. Great for busting open tanks if I have the first turn (auto hit), or removing an objective camping unit from cover.. However, I can't find enough points to do it.

I suppose a more competitive (sans-Sicarius) list would be something like:

Librarian, Null Zone, Avenger, 100

5 Sternguard, 4 Combi-meltas, Rhino, 180
5 Sternguard, 4 Combi-meltas, Rhino, 180

Tactical Squad, Combi-melta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino 220
Tactical Squad, Combi-melta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino 220
Scout Squad, Sniper Rifles, 75

Land Speeder Typhoon 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 90

Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters, 85
Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters, 85
Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolters, 85

1500/1500

Essentially replaces Sicarius & Land Speeder Storm with: Librarian, Typhoon, Predator.

why does everyone suggest spartans aren't normal greeks? it's only in the movies that they're really special.

above list isn't competitive.

more infantry, predators aren't as good as tactical marines, no matter how you spin them.

Captain Solon wrote:why does everyone suggest spartans aren't normal greeks? it's only in the movies that they're really special.

The Spartans were indeed drastically diffrent compared to the other "greeks".

Captain Solon wrote:
above list isn't competitive.

more infantry, predators aren't as good as tactical marines, no matter how you spin them.

And crack is healthy for you...

Tacticals serve a diffrent role compared to Predators and are scoring. However two front AV13 tanks that put out 4 str 7shots and 12 str 5 shots at 36" range are in most peoples book better at both dealing out and taking damage than a 10man MEQ squad without a ride...

tedurur wrote:Tacticals serve a diffrent role compared to Predators and are scoring. However two front AV13 tanks that put out 4 str 7shots and 12 str 5 shots at 36" range are in most peoples book better at both dealing out and taking damage than a 10man MEQ squad without a ride...

I'm inclined to agree. At 1500, five possible scoring units is pretty good for a Space Marine army I think. What it lacks is long range fire support, which in this list take the form of Predators and Land Speeders. I think 3 full Tactical Squads would be too much.