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If I have a transport with troops inside, such as a Battlewagon with Lootas, can I pivot in place and still fire the lootas on the same turn?

BRB Page 58 states that pivoting does not count as moving.

BRB Page 66 states that if the vehicle moves, the troops count as moving.

Thanks,
Heffling

I've always played that HWs can shoot if my Chimeras only pivot, based on the rules you cite above. I'm assuming Lootas are the same way.

Pivoting does not count as moving, and it is as simple as that. This is specifically mentioned on page 58 as you have pointed out.
The rule on Page 66 only applies to vehicles that have moved, and since the vehicle 'does not count as moving'... well, there you go.

Erm, entirely wrong.

The vehicle does not count as moving, but it HAS moved. So passengers may not shoot heavy weapons (normally...), however the vehicle is unaffected.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, entirely wrong. The vehicle does not count as moving, but it HAS moved. So passengers may not shoot heavy weapons (normally...), however the vehicle is unaffected.

What is this I don't even....

@ Claypool
I don’t think there is any arguing with him.

“You moved.”

“But pivoting doesn’t count as movement.”

“But you moved.”

“I only pivoted which doesn’t count as moving for shooting.”

“But you moved.”

Heffling wrote:If I have a transport with troops inside, such as a Battlewagon with Lootas, can I pivot in place and still fire the lootas on the same turn?

BRB Page 58 states that pivoting does not count as moving.

BRB Page 66 states that if the vehicle moves, the troops count as moving.

Thanks,
Heffling

You just answered your own question. If a vehicle pivots, it does not count as having moved. If the vehicle does not count as having moved, the troops do not count as having moved. Simple as that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, entirely wrong.

The vehicle does not count as moving, but it HAS moved. So passengers may not shoot heavy weapons (normally...), however the vehicle is unaffected.

How can this be true? If the vehicle does not count as having moved, how can the passengers count as having moved?

If the passage was worded something like, "If the vehicle pivots it does not count as having moved for the purpose of firing its own weapons," then I would agree with you; those are specific criteria regarding when it does and does not count as having moved.

However, this is not the case, IIRC.

Please correct me (with citations) if I am wrong though.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
“I only pivoted which doesn’t count as moving for shooting.”

“But you moved.”

"Really? What action did I perform that counted as moving?"
"But you moved! I saw you move the tank with your hand!"

Pivoting doesn't count as moving. So... for the purposes of any rules involving movement that don't include an exception, the vehicle does not count as having moved.
And neither do the units inside, since they 'count as moving if the vehicle moves' but the vehicle performed no actions that count as moving and only an action that specifically does not.

In before 'But it moved!'.

Yup, pivoting on the spot doesn't count as moving. The sole exception to this is for dis/embarking, which specifically does count the pivot as a move.

For shooting purposes, though, a vehicle that only pivots has effectively not moved.

Edited for misreading the thread!

tjkopena wrote:In any case, like insaniak said, if the vehicle pivots, you count as moving for the passengers (who therefore can't shoot heavy weps, etc.) but don't count as moving in terms of the vehicle's own shooting.

I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite, in fact.

Except in certain specific situations, a vehicle pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving.

SO, when it comes time to determine whether the passengers can shoot... Did the vehicle move? Yes... but it doesn't count as having moved. So, for the purposes of that action, the vehicle hasn't moved.

The carve out for pivoting counting as moving for passengers is in the transports rules, on pg 66.

For embarking and disembarking. It doesn't apply to shooting from the vehicle.

insaniak wrote:I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite, in fact.

Yes, I quickly misread the thread to be about disembarking. I would argue the same way, that if you're staying in the vehicle and it pivots, it doesn't count as having moved for shooting. It still would have been a lot cleaner for the rules to have ignored the whole business about pivoting counting as not moving, and instead simply noted that the vehicle and troops inside can shoot as normal if it simply pivots.

tjkopena wrote: It still would have been a lot cleaner for the rules to have ignored the whole business about pivoting counting as not moving, and instead simply noted that the vehicle and troops inside can shoot as normal if it simply pivots.

That would only work if vehicles had a 'normal' mode of fire. They don't, though... What they can shoot is governed by how far they move. So pointing out that a pivoting vehicle can fire 'as normal' would leave people asking 'As normal for what? For a stationary vehicle? For one that moved? How far?'

Pointing out that the pivoting vehicle counts as stationary is much clearer within the rules as they currently work.

insaniak wrote:That would only work if vehicles had a 'normal' mode of fire. They don't, though... What they can shoot is governed by how far they move. So pointing out that a pivoting vehicle can fire 'as normal' would leave people asking 'As normal for what? For a stationary vehicle? For one that moved? How far?'

You're reading my post too literally, I should have been more formal. Instead of all the junk about pivoting counting as not moving, you would remove all that and simply change the relevant line on pg 58 from:

* Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their
weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does
not count as moving).

To:

* Vehicles that remained stationary or solely pivoted on the spot may fire all of their
weapons.

Then, you would add a note in the transports section that passengers (remaining in the vehicle) count as not moving if the vehicle solely pivoted. It seems cleaner than going on about pivoting not counting as moving, then to caveat that 12 pages later when disembarking and making a distinction based on pivoting, and makes the OP's question explicitly resolved.

Seems like you just said the same thing twice.

How are RAW not clear on this?

I think that the concern is the difference between having the Troops inside a transport that pivoted count as moving or not moving.

Given the citations out of the rulebook above, I'd say we've established that:

A) Vehicles that pivot do not count as moving for purposes of shooting their own weapons.

B) Vehicles that pivot do not count as moving for purposes of being assaulted by enemy units.

C) Troops inside the vehicles that pivot do not count as moving for purposes of "Shooting" from inside the vehicle.

- However -

D) Said Troops inside vehicle WOULD count as moving for purposes of disembarking and being (or not being) allowed further movement during the same turn.

I think the confusion started before someone corrected himself with a more specific question (perhaps?). I didn't read this thread until just now, so I can't say for certain where the confusion may have come from.

At any rate, if what I've noted here in my msg is INCORRECT, would someone be as kind enough as to correct me on it. I'm pretty sure I hit it on the mark though....

^ Correct.