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Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Looking into some questions regarding when phases start I found an(other) issue with the Tyranid FAQ.

"Do units who begin their turn more than 12" from any Synapse Creature have to test for Instinctive Behaviour if a Synapse Creature arrives from reserves within 12" at the beginning of the Movement phase?

Yes--the model has begun its Movement phase outside of synapse range."

Reserves occur before moving any unit (Main rules page 94)


So, am I reading this correctly?

When a player's turn starts, everything that happens at the "beginning of the phase" happens before the phase does?

Or does this mean that all "beginning of their phase" or "beginning of the phase" rules technically simultaneously?

Until now I had read that a unit's phase starts when that unit is acting or not in a given phase--or not meaning after other actions in the phase or a deliberate statement that the unit is not acting in that phase.

Is this just me or am I missing something again?

Or is it that, despite the wording, this is only regarding synapse rules?


editing to change an incorrect word.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/08/14 02:14:42


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Sniveling Snotling




Buffalo, NY

IMO the reserves would arrive per page 94, and the units requiring that synapse creatures support would then receive it. 'Simultaneous' is stricken when the work "before" on page 94's rules are read.

What good is a battlefield without an Architect behind it all?  
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Which is exactly what the FAQ says does NOT happen.

Thus my post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/14 02:24:51


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

This is very similar to the issues surrounding Eldar psychic powers, which are also cast at the start of a phase but its somewhat unclear how they interact with reserves.

Similar to the interpretation in FAQ answer above, I generally treat "beginning of the phase" type things to happen in a non existent sub-phase which happens before anything else in that phase. GW have never really clarified these kind of issues in 40k, at least in WHFB now there is a specific start of turn phase to deal with them. Much like many of the Eldar psychic powers, IB tests are made at the start of a turn, but as reserves at not on the table at the start of the turn (not at the very start, they come on once you make reserve rolls etc) they cannot be targets for Eldar psychic powers or help out with synapse.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Eldar powers were one of the reasons I started looking.

The literal answer in the FAQ seems to address those too, which is where this came from, despite the army in question.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Generally Speaking Beginning of the Movement phase/Turn effects can usually go in any order you choose within certain Provisions.

Reserves must be made, and must be made before any model moves.

Instictive behavior on certain models technically cannot be done until reserves comes in: Any model with lurk can(and should per FAQ) take their IB test. Any model with Feed should(and must) take the test after reserves is completed.

Now as to the nature of the Instinctive Behavior Test and it's interaction with Reserves; the beginning of the movement phase comes up. You check for synapse range, You see that Some units are outside of synapse range, You then Mark those units in some way and go ahead with your reserve rolls and reserve moves, Then you go back to those units that started thier movement phase outside of synapse and begin testing for IB.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Powers, synapse and rolling for reserves all happen at a known time - the start of the turn / start of the movement phase (these are simultaneous now)

Placing of reserves happens after all reserves have been rolled for. Since we know that rolling for reserves happens at the same time as synapse and that placing reserves comes after rolling for reserves it must also come after checking for synapse.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/15 13:56:44


 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian





Atlanta

I thought synapse was tested at the beginning of the movement phase. At the beginning of the turn you rolled for reserves, then at the beginning of the movement phase those units walk on/ds/outflank/what have you and roll IB for units that were out of synapse. I usually have reserves on the board and then roll IB to see what those units do despite newly arrived synapse.

My Sisters of Battle Thread
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/783053.page
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Beginning of the turn == beginning of the movement phase, as there is no "start of turn" phase as there is in 8th ed fantasy.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






mrwhoop wrote:I thought synapse was tested at the beginning of the movement phase. At the beginning of the turn you rolled for reserves, then at the beginning of the movement phase those units walk on/ds/outflank/what have you and roll IB for units that were out of synapse. I usually have reserves on the board and then roll IB to see what those units do despite newly arrived synapse.


This is made clear by the chart on P9 - the start of the movement phase is also the start of the turn.

Also, nothing says that units coming on from reserves happens at the start of the movement phase. The only timing information for placing reserves is that it is after rolling for them which happens at start of turn (which we already know is also the start of the movement phase)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/18 12:07:39


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Scott-s6: Placement of Reserves is a part of the reserves process; after you roll for all your reserves you immediately start moving those models onto the table(by whatever means they enter play via reserves through) Once this has happened you are thoroughly into your movement phase(models have been moved) so you must forgo any voluntary "start of Miovement phase/turn" actions that turn.

Certain Psychic Powers and other abilities simply do not work when you have models in reserve. Examples include Gate of infinity(which moves a model, or multiple models as part of the ability) and Synapse critters with feed(although nothing in the IB rules state that the "Rage move" must be immediately applied)

Actually of those 2 only Gate cannot be used if you have models in reserve(or rather if those reserved models become available).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

This makes the Tervigon's synapse boost a fair bit less useful then, as I read it.


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Kommissar Kel wrote:Scott-s6: Placement of Reserves is a part of the reserves process; after you roll for all your reserves you immediately start moving those models onto the table(by whatever means they enter play via reserves through) Once this has happened you are thoroughly into your movement phase(models have been moved) so you must forgo any voluntary "start of Miovement phase/turn" actions that turn.


You sound like you're disagreeing with me, but you aren't. As you rightly say, reserves being placed clearly happens after start of turn/start of movement phase.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

Scott, if you're saying that you can move the units already on the table before moving your reserves onto the table, then you're wrong. That is indeed covered in the rulebook and you do have to move your successful reserves onto the table before moving any of the units that started the turn on the table.

If that's not what you're saying, then I don't know just what you are saying.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






No, I'm not implying that anywhere in my posts.

1. Start of turn and start of movement phase is the same thing.
2. Synapse, powers and rolling for reserves happen simultaneously at start of turn / start of movement phase.
3. Placing of reserves happens after rolling for them so also happens after synapse and powers.

While units entering from reserves must be done before moving other units, it is no longer the start of the turn or start of the movement phase as that is when rolling for reserves happens and we know that placing units entering from reserves happens after that.

mrwhoop stated that reserves are rolled for at start of turn and reserves enter play at the start of the movement phase. This is incorrect per the above.
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian





Atlanta

Does what I say work? Well yes and no. While I play it correctly, I am wrong (and I can get very wrong) about calling it turn/phase as it's the same thing.

Scott-S6 "Also, nothing says that units coming on from reserves happens at the start of the movement phase. The only timing information for placing reserves is that it is after rolling for them which happens at start of turn (which we already know is also the start of the movement phase)"

Pg 94 says "At the start of each of his Movement phases...Once all units have been rolled for...and deploys it moving it onto the table...and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move as normal."

Nid IB pg 33 "All unengaged Tyranid models...take a leadership test at the beginning of their movement phase."
In my head it stays neater if I separate reserves, IB tests and normal movement. You're right in that it happens all at once (bar the normal units), but I roll reserves, then IB as it says in their movement phase, then continue as normal.

The Faq says new synapse doesn't count so I don't include it when making IB tests. I place dice by those units. We're all there I think, I just kicked up mud, sorry.

edited for quote

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/18 17:10:53


My Sisters of Battle Thread
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/783053.page
 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

mrwhoop wrote:Pg 94 says "At the start of each of his Movement phases...Once all units have been rolled for...and deploys it moving it onto the table...and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move as normal."

Nid IB pg 33 "All unengaged Tyranid models...take a leadership test at the beginning of their movement phase."
In my head it stays neater if I separate reserves, IB tests and normal movement. You're right in that it happens all at once (bar the normal units), but I roll reserves, then IB as it says in their movement phase, then continue as normal.

The Faq says new synapse doesn't count so I don't include it when making IB tests. I place dice by those units. We're all there I think, I just kicked up mud, sorry.
This was the crux of my confusion.
Start of their movement phase vs. start of each of his(the player's) movement phases.

Until that FAQ that it seemed pretty clear, like most of the rest; then GW . . .

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian





Atlanta

Re-reading all this I would also like to point out that the Nid rule says no IB test if falling back. If a synapse reserve comes in the unit falling back auto rallies. So that reserve can still keep the line from running off the board

My Sisters of Battle Thread
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/783053.page
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Whoop: That Absolutely Does Work; it is the same for an Avatar held in Reserve, and any other model that provides a "Fearless bubble". They must come in from reserve before you make your fallback move(because reserves must be rolled for before any models move) and as soon as a fleeing unit is within range of a model that grants it Fearless it rallies.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
 
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