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Hello Dakka!

I am returning to 40k from the lost time of 1993.

I want a crimson fist army. It has to be fast, agressive, competitive, and kinda fluffy (will sacrafice fluff for wins). I want to head up to 1500 pts, any ideas for smaller point lists to get there are great. My local club/ game store want painted amies......and I'm picky about my paint. I have been painting full time since 1993 but not playing, so an army might take some time.

A list base I am interested in is

Pedro 175

Scout squad with PF and combat blades 100
Scout squad with PF and combat blades 100

Land speeder storm HF 60
Land speeder storm HF 60

Sternguard 5 man PF 5x combi melta 175
sternguard 5 man PF 5x combi melta 175

Razorback TL LC 75
Razorback TL LC 75

About 1k



or drop pods

On top of this base I am interested in a dread of some type (with DP).....another group of sternguard (larger) with heavy weapons. Drop pods, Thunderfire cannon, And assault troops.

The idea is I only use troop choices for crashing first round into the enemy. SG for objective holding, and fire support. (crimson fists in my mind are vets with newbs trying to prove themselves).

If an average game lasts 5-6 rounds I want a fast nasty first 2 rounds, and the ability to hold early gains. I also like razorbacks with TL LC. The thought of land raider/ Terminators with SS/TH is fine. I have read lots of lists, they just seem to be off the mark.

And another newb question.....I f Pedro dies, Sg are no longer scoring right?

Thanks for any input you have.

I am thinking of a larger group of scouts with snipers/ml/and telion.......but is it still fluffy to use the telion template for CF?

Thanks

-D

I Have 2000 pt of necrons ready to roll, just a couple of games under my belt, and awaiting a competitive new codex. Crimson Fists are my passion though.

Do you expect to run into alot of armour at 1k? I would consider 2 Combi-plasmas in each Sternguard squad. I would also drop the Fist on the Sternguard. Maybe consider droping the RBs for rhinos. All in all though, your list is solid.

Pedro = 175

Troops
Scouts (PF+Combi-Melta) = 110

Scouts (PF+Combi-Melta) = 110

FA:
LSS (HF) = 60

LSS (HF) = 60

Elites:
7xSternguard (4xCombi melta+3xCombi-Plasma) = 210
Rhino = 35

7xSternguard (3xCombi melta+3xCombi-Plasma) = 205
Rhino = 35


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and SGs are scoring even if Pedro dies

I'd follow Tedururs advice, my only possible change would be Combi-flamer on the Scout Sarge. It all depends on your meta and how you intend to use your scouts.

Though I do like the heavy weapon razorbacks as they deal with Mechdar something Tedurur's list wouldn't have an answer for.

On your list I'd drop the PFs down to LCs to give both the Scout Squads combis.

Then I'd consider dropping the LCs to get another combi-plasma toting guy in the squad Pedro isn't joining.

In each squad 3 combi-meltas is enough. Then combi-plasmas should be taken for the others. Your scouts can handle hordes and infantry, your SG take on elites, MCs and armour and your razorbacks pop transports.

edit:
Heh, I take too long to type up a C&C. Tedurur and FlingItNow ninja'd me ... with decidedly opposite advice (approving the list), but we do agree that you have too many combis ...

Diamond wrote:I am returning to 40k from the lost time of 1993.

I'll keep this in mind.

Diamond wrote:Pedro
Scout squad with PF and combat blades
Land speeder storm HF
sternguard 5 man PF 5x combi melta
Razorback TL LC

I recently ate a CrimFist list that was big on Razors, L.S.Storms and scouts, very close to yours ... two main reasons for its failures:
1. the guns on razors just don't have enough firepower for the points costs. Very inefficient, IMHO ... about 50 odd points for one shot?
2. 5 man squads are easily destroyed

Your list:
1. The SGs have too many melta-combis for 1k. Your enemy just won't have that much armor, and those few transports are likely to be readily handled by the usual assault by Pfist (i.e., not AV14) and good ol' marine STR. Maybe just buy two meltas and forego the combis?
2. Downgrade the razors to rhinos and flesh out the squads to full size, as best as possible.
3. Plus, I think Pedro is a little steep for 1k. Perhaps a stripped down librarian? leading to ...
4. Without Pedro, the SG will have to become two tacitcals (in rhinos)
5. I'd combine the scouts into one full crew (in LSStorm)

Diamond wrote:On top of this base I am interested in ... Thunderfire cannon, And assault troops.

Both good adds on your way to 1500. Multiple ThunderCans are nasty. If you buy one, get three.

Diamond wrote:The idea is I only use troop choices for crashing first round into the enemy.

5 man scout units *will* crash into the enemy, like a Honda into a brick wall.
Scouts are mop-up crews, not heavy-hitters, like TH/SS termies or 10 man assault crews.

Diamond wrote: I also like razorbacks with TL LC.

5th edition is full of Cover Saves, making the LasCan not so effective, like I stated above. I haven't seen much LasCan use, since 5e came out.

Diamond wrote:And another newb question.....I f Pedro dies, Sg are no longer scoring right?

They remain scoring if he dies.

Diamond wrote:I am thinking of a larger group of scouts with snipers/ml/and telion.......but is it still fluffy to use the telion template for CF?

He is Ultra, so if I was stiffly fluff, I'd say no. But I'm not a Fluff-minded player. But the full scout crew is a good idea. Telion? I guess.

FlingitNow wrote:I'd follow Tedururs advice, my only possible change would be Combi-flamer on the Scout Sarge. It all depends on your meta and how you intend to use your scouts.

Though I do like the heavy weapon razorbacks as they deal with Mechdar something Tedurur's list wouldn't have an answer for.

On your list I'd drop the PFs down to LCs to give both the Scout Squads combis.

Then I'd consider dropping the LCs to get another combi-plasma toting guy in the squad Pedro isn't joining.

In each squad 3 combi-meltas is enough. Then combi-plasmas should be taken for the others. Your scouts can handle hordes and infantry, your SG take on elites, MCs and armour and your razorbacks pop transports.

Yeah, my list would probably have a hard time against Mechdar but I dont really think two extra str 8 shots will make that much of a difference.

5 man scout units *will* crash into the enemy, like a Honda into a brick wall.

This advice is not entirely correct. Scouts will smash static vehicles and shooty units. Tooled up with double flamer and they also monster through horde units of 20 models or less.

Telion can be fluffy in any list just keep him painted Ultra and say he's on loan it is right there in his fluff.

Having said that I use Pedro in my Ultramarines list as my Avatar is testament too.

5th edition is full of Cover Saves, making the LasCan not so effective, like I stated above. I haven't seen much LasCan use, since 5e came out.

Then what do you use against Mechdar? A stern glance and a lot of hope? I'd stick with the Las-backs in this list for the very reason it covers something the list would otherwise do poorly against.

The list is VERY brittle but used well it could be effective.

BrothereErekose wrote:5 man scout units *will* crash into the enemy, like a Honda into a brick wall.

FlingitNow wrote:This advice is not entirely correct. Scouts will smash static vehicles and shooty units.

C'mon, FiN, who let's their vehicles remain static? And yes, I agree, most shooty units will fold to h2h scouts.

The thing is, 5e is so much more a transport/assaulty oriented game, with far less shooty usage, therefore, the two easy targets for h2h scouts you've cited aren't really there that much (static vehicles and shooty units).

FlingitNow wrote:Tooled up with double flamer and they also monster through horde units of 20 models or less.

Granted.

BrotherErekose wrote:5th edition is full of Cover Saves, making the LasCan not so effective, like I stated above. I haven't seen much LasCan use, since 5e came out.

FlingitNow wrote:Then what do you use against Mechdar? A stern glance and a lot of hope? I'd stick with the Las-backs in this list for the very reason it covers something the list would otherwise do poorly against.

MLs will do the same against WaveSerpents as the LasCan, for less points. And I more often assault 'em since meltas are not great against 'em either.

FlingitNow wrote:The list is VERY brittle but used well it could be effective.

Agreed on the first, but I have yet to see anyone do well with 5 man squads, FiN.

C'mon, FiN, who let's their vehicles remain static? And yes, I agree, most shooty units will fold to h2h scouts.

They don't have to remain static, they start the game static, hit them in turn 1 before they've had a chance to move!

People still take shooty units and small CC units. I've had 5 CC scouts wipe out 6 Striking scorpions on the charge (granted only 2 were left by the time I actually charged after the flamey goodness and he tool a biting blade on his Exarch). At 1000 point horde units will often number around 20 models as the 30 man squads become too much of a points sink.

Devastators, Long fangs, Tac combat squads, anything Tau or IG (without a Commissar), Horde units less than 20, static vehicles and anything Eldar are all viable targets fo rthe scouts. At 1000 points that is the type of units you will see a fair bit of.

MLs will do the same against WaveSerpents as the LasCan, for less points. And I more often assault 'em since meltas are not great against 'em either.

ML isn't an option on the Razorback and isn't a good option on any of his squads...

Agreed on the first, but I have yet to see anyone do well with 5 man squads, FiN.

At 1000 points it is rare to see MEQ at much bigger as a lot of people combat squad for flexibility as they don't have the points to get more units. Likewise you can always plow both Scout squads into 1 10 Man tac squad and again you should win. It is about target selection and ensuring where possible you are eihter getting more bang for your buck (i.e. taking on something worth more than the scouts that they can beat) or taking on isolated targets to reduce or prevent reprisals. It is also being OK with letting all your scouts die.

For me all the scouts that come back alive are put up for summary execution as they clearly weren't trying hard enough

FlingitNow wrote:

C'mon, FiN, who let's their vehicles remain static? And yes, I agree, most shooty units will fold to h2h scouts.

They don't have to remain static, they start the game static, hit them in turn 1 before they've had a chance to move!

With true LoS, do ya manage to get deployed at the 12 inch range, often?

FlingitNow wrote:People still take shooty units and small CC units.

I guess this comes out as insolent (not intending to), but it doesn't sound like you're playing a very competitive set of guys, and I don't mean all the way to WAAC players.

FlingitNow wrote:Devastators, Long fangs, Tac combat squads, anything Tau or IG (without a Commissar), Horde units less than 20, static vehicles and anything Eldar are all viable targets fo rthe scouts. At 1000 points that is the type of units you will see a fair bit of.

Devs at 1k? At all? On the tables I don't see them. On C&C lists, I rarely see them.

FlingitNow wrote:ML isn't an option on the Razorback and isn't a good option on any of his squads...

True. I just don't see a ~50 point TL-LasCan as a good buy.

FlingitNow wrote:For me all the scouts that come back alive are put up for summary execution as they clearly weren't trying hard enough

Why would you need to deploy 12" away? They have a LSS...

With true LoS, do ya manage to get deployed at the 12 inch range, often?

No but I pretty much always get to be within 45"...

I guess this comes out as insolent (not intending to), but it doesn't sound like you're playing a very competitive set of guys, and I don't mean all the way to WAAC players.

So you're saying you don't see any shooty units? I'd like to see the "competitive" IG list without any shooty units...

At 1000 points it is not that rare to see smallish Aspect warrior squads and CC hordes of less than 20 men. I don't know any Tourney's that run at that low points levels so sure I'm often against less competivve players/armies at that points level. But even competitive builds at that points level will include smallish units due to points restrictions.

Devs at 1k? At all? On the tables I don't see them. On C&C lists, I rarely see them.

Granted devs are rare and generally in poor lists. All the other potential targets are not though.

True. I just don't see a ~50 point TL-LasCan as a good buy.

Its a 35 point upgrade and in this army it makes sense. He can't afford two AC/LC preds so the lasback is the most affordable option given he's going Sternguard at 1000 points.

At 1500 it would be a good idea he needs full SG squads then and proper fire support (those 2 Preds mentioned earlier would be good starting points).

Theree is no point saying drop Pedro and take a tac squad list as that is an entirely different list. Whilst his type of build will struggle at this points level it can become competitive at 1500 (and better at 1750 and 2000). If he starts collecting the tac list he'll have to change his whole army when he brings in Pedro.

Thanks for the advice all!! Ill switch combi-meltas for some combi-plamsas for sure. The local meta from what I have seen is heavy mech IG, SM, and nid/orc horde. The LHS has a huge crowd, so ill see everything. Games there will go from casual to cut throat I hear, and they have 1500pt tourny once a month.

couple of thoughts (the 1k list need not be competitive, but must be part of a larger 1500 list)

1) So in a 1500 pt list 2 preds is gonna be the shooty armor I need?
that being the case the transports will be rhinos?

2) no need for drop pods?

3) no need for dreadnought?

4) Thunderfire cannon is a solid choice at 1500pt?

5) I realize pedro is expensive at the 1k mark.......and will prolly invest in a librarian for fun smaller games.

Thanks again

-D

I like Drop pods, mixed with Dreads they're a nice way to deliver walkers behind your opponent's lines.

1) It can be depends on your list as a whole. Yes the SG should be then in Rhinos because they should be full squads.

2) It depends what you want to do with your army. An alpha strike with those Scouts supported by Pedro and Sternguard can cut the heart out of an army and those Scouts would then be getting 4 attacks on the charge each (plus their bolt pistol shots).

3) At 1500 in a Pedro list it is Dreads are Preds. You realistically need 2 of which ever you choose which doesn;t leave points for the other.

4) Again only in pairs, but the Dreads and Preds survivability would mean they work better in your already quite brittle army.

5) He is but I'd still persevere, if you put a Libby in there then you have to drop the SG and then you're building a completely different army. As is you can make a decentish 1000 point army that will be a bit of a paper cannon but can still be effective. But will obviously improve when you up to the larger points and can provide you with the building block to that size force and give you experience using the units at eth smaller points level.