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Why would you use Ogres over Trolls? It just seems like the only way to make the Ogres better, you need to rack up the cost.

Ogres can have more strength than the trolls, if you pay for GWs.
Ogres can have more attacks than trolls, but at less strength and you have to pay for it
Ogres can have a similar save that is not ignored by flames, but it is modifiable, if you pay for Chaos Armor.
Ogres can have Command, if you pay for it.
Ogres can have Marks, if you pay for them.

I guess Ogres don't need babysitting, but then they are not Immune to Panic either. I guess they have Will of Chaos though.

Trolls get Mutant Regeneration and Ogres really have nothing like that.

Ogre Standards, is about the only thing I could argue for.

So, quick and dirty, are ogres "not good" for their cost? I really wanted a Nurgle unit so I could make them look like mini-GUOs. I'll get them regardless but I guess I'd like to know what to expect when I field them.

That is a good question. I haven't tried trolls, but I have a unit of 4 khornate ogres with chaos armor and extra hand weapon that worked pretty well. I suspect though that trolls are slightly better, even with stupid and fewer attacks. Almost certainly better with Throgg running around to make them core choices. Otherwise you are pretty much getting 1 Str for -1I, Stupidity, 4+ save instead of 5+, vomit, and 10 points.

Actually, when I look at it that way, the flexibility to kit out Ogres is kind of nice. Probably not absolutely better, or sufficient to make them really worth while.

Were I you, Cannerus, I would make mini-GUO trolls with Throgg leading them. Really nice unit, and thematically it would make a lot of sense, big bloated things that only get stronger when you cut them I love the idea so much, I might steal it

I don't know the stats for Chaos Ogres/Trolls other than the reference sheets.

But don't Ogres have an extra wound? That's huge. And their leadership isn't 4, despite the immunity. Aren't trolls stupid too?

Many races have kind of an Ogre type. Trolls in greenskins. Rat Ogres. Kroxigors. Ushabti. etc. The Ogre Kingdoms ogres are pretty much universally the cheapest for the attributes they give. Makes sense, since it's their core.

If you're buying those units in other races, it's not really their core competency. You're just looking for some specialized troops to fill out your army.

SO, what are you looking for? Shock troops with high stats and stomp? Resiliant troops? Multi-wound fighters? Guys who are hard to kill even without armor? Depending on how you're trying to compliment your army, each one might be better. But even if you could buy them as core units, they wouldn't be very cost-effective. Chaos has better choices for that.

DukeRustfield wrote:But don't Ogres have an extra wound?

That's Dragon Ogres, which are a whole new category in that they're pretty effective but cost even more.

DukeRustfield wrote:That's huge. And their leadership isn't 4, despite the immunity. Aren't trolls stupid too?

Ogres are Ld7, Chaos Ogres Ld8, and Trolls Ld4 (no information not freely given on GW's main website). Trolls are also stupid, yes, but make up for it with the fact that they can use the General's Leadership and - with the changes made for 8th Edition - the Battle Standard Bearer's re-roll too (which means they go from a natural 16% on their own, to the 83% they normally have for a General, to now 97%-ish when near BSB and General).

Ogres have pretty much always been a massive dissapointment.. As long as your enemy isnt using a ton of flaming weapons trolls are superior in virtually every way

Unfortunately, I think we'll see a lot more flaming attacks in this edition, since it got better . I'm starting a Throgg-led troll army, so it's going to hurt!

Dam, why do I always pick armies that hate fire...

Ogres don't seem to stand out in any one category to me, but they're not bad either. Trolls have an edge on them in some situations definitely, but there will be times when the advantage of trolls is negated, or they become even worse- a liability! Such as the general dying to magic or some such, so they have to use their own leadership for stupid (basically taking them out of the game). Or as mentioned, an opponent with flaming cannons... Ieie! Burnt troll...

I just re-read the rule last night, a wound caused by a flaming attack makes the unit lose regeneration for that entire phase. So if they have one flaming cannons, and a bunch of archers/musketeers/etc, they can negate your regeneration save for that phase, and then pepper you with small stuff. Nasty!!

So trolls have some glaring weaknesses that can be taken advantage of that ogres don't, but that also kind of makes them fun, too

Oddly enough, I've just made the call to switch the Throggstar in my WoT army from Throgg + 6 trolls to Throgg + 6 tizz ogres w/ chaos armor & musician. The points work out the same, except I gain a musician (huge boost for how I make lists) and nab a 4/6+ save instead of a -/-/4+ mutant regen save. With flaming everywhere now, the ogre Throggstar should hold up passably better compared to the troll Throggstar, which simply crisps up and is served on a bun. The best comparison is low strength flaming, like bret archers (S3) or fireballs (S4) which kill trolls with a little luck but have to work against chaos armor + the mark of tzeentch.

Yes the S4 ogres are relatively weak compared to the S5 trolls, but in my test runs Throgg is basically doing the heavy lifting while his friends back him up. The ogres also solve 2 problems of mine: 1) Whether or not back rank trolls can vomit if their friends do (pretty sure the RAW is no, they can't); 2) The models I'm using look a LOT more like ogres with halberds / ccw than trolls I also get to mark the unit, which fits them in better with the army as a whole.

- Salvage

Good points, Salvage! I think on paper trolls look a lot better, but in practice the drawbacks (lots of flaming attacks being taken in 8th edition negating their regen being primary, but also the need to be near a general or Throgg) can make them even or worse than the ogres in a lot of situations...

No vomit from the back rank, huh? So would they get normal attacks from back there? I agree with you RAW, this is something that they never could have forseen when the book was written, though.

That's an interesting point about flaming weapons. So you didn't go additional hand weapons or mark of Khorne on your ogres? Interesting...

Not trying to resurrect a crusty thread, but I'll be trying out a 1000 point game with a unit of ogres and a unit of trolls this week.

I've only had one test game so far, in which I took 2 units of trolls. Unfortunately, one failed stupidity first turn, got charged by a doomwheel, and although they ended up killing it, were out of the game since throgg and the other unit couldn't hang back and wait for them (meaning they were now testing for stupidity on LD 4 )

Will update with how they do and the comparison! Also still thinking about how to outfit the ogres...

Well, it looks like I'm having a conversation with myself but I'll continue!

I got my first game in with both ogres and trolls, and both impressed! But the ogres filled an invaluable role- they could actually move away from Throgg . So when I took 2 units of trolls, one ended up stupid for the rest of the game when they took a charge and got left behind, this time Throgg's unit failed stupidity, and the ogres could continue to move up and do their thing.

I took units like this:

6 Trolls- 270
6 Ogres, MoK, AHW, Chaos Armor, Std, Mus- 330

The ogres are expensive, but the front rank has 5 attacks each! So they're going after lighter targets to take advantage of their greater number of attacks (and since throgg was with the trolls, they needed the extra dice).

I was very pleased with the combination . So in answer to the OP, especially if you're already taking a unit of trolls, I think ogres make a lot of sense! Now I just need to figure out what to do at higher point levels where I'll have to take more trolls (whether to keep them in one large unit, or split it in two. I'm probably not going any higher than 2 so that they don't end up stupid for most of the game!)

I tried Chaos trolls with Throgg, They have done wonders for me. Throgg's unit was attack on the front and rear by 2 ungor blocks, and on the flank by a gor block. Over the course of 2, maybe 3 player turns of combat that unit fought its way out of that scenerio, The Ungors on the front reduced to less than 5 models and running, and the rear Ungors also taking heavy losses and running as well. The gors on the flank ran as well, but their losses were not as big, they fled off the table.

Interesting RiTides. I hope to find a battle report on that! That is a good point on the ogres though, providing a more mobile option for when you trolls get stuck a bit. I guess you could mitigate that by dropping a cheap hero into the other troll unit, but having your units tethered to Throgg would be a pain. I am really interested in seeing that play out in larger point games, with 18 troll blocks running around

Yes I'm looking forward to being able to field a unit of trolls in horde formation . Will update on how the troll/ogre comparison goes this week, as I'll have 2 games with the army for the escalation league!

Will try to make one of them into a report as well

I've just started a Warriors of Chaos army, and i've written my list. I did'nt include Orges or Trolls, but i wrote down some alternative selections for my list depending what opponent i was facing. I also stuggled to decide between the two.

I went with Orges in the end(the leadership decided it), with all the upgrades they are more expensive. But they have more wounds with chaos armour! Give them Gw's( with I2 it makes sense!) and they are then strengh 6. I was thinking of having 8 with the Mark of Nurgle, that would make a nice big expensive distraction on a flank!

I am considering the GW version as well... so far I'd been thinking I'd have the most trouble with large blocks of things, and so was trying out AHW. Will update on how they do if I get to try them configured differently, though.

And I agree- they're more expensive, but they can do things trolls can't... like go off on their own, swift reform, etc. Definitely have their advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation...