Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alrighty, just got back from a game against Daemons; it was a bloody mess of a battle with glorious casualties on both sides! As it turns out, Bloodthirsters are pretty good at killing Trygons. Curse you I5, 4+ invuls, WS10, and S8! Seriously, that's just crazy. Pricey, though.

Anyhow, I'm having issues with the Swarmlord. I want to like him. I really like the model I made for him (soon to be in the gallery). I don't like that he and his two guards are over 400 points and slog around the table like lost tourists until turn 3-4. Even once in combat, being only S6 means he still only wounds on a 4+ against most other Monstrous Creatures. He's certainly great against MCs that are susceptible to Instant Death like our own beloved creatures as well as pesky assault Terminators, but against most standard enemies I feel it hard to justify his cost. His powers are certainly nifty, but the only ones I find myself using with regularity are Paroxism and letting a unit within 18" reroll all missed hits. Any Tyrant can cast Paroxism just as well as Swarmy and for 25pts can give Preferred Enemy within 6". The +1 to reserves and re-rolling Outflank is certainly handy, but any standard Tyrant can give +1 to reserves and lets something else Outflank that otherwise couldn't. Hive guard coming in on a back flank makes artillery sad.

Now granted, a standard Tyrant with Old Adversary and Hive Commander is running pretty close to the Swarmlord's cost and when specifically comparing these two I'd probably take the Swarmlord due to his better ability to handle specific scenarios. However, drop the two guards and pick up wings, now the Tyrant can really get somewhere it's needed, apply that Old Adversary bonus, and participate in fights before the back half of the game or blasting infantry via neutered Devourer shots (why, oh why did they take away BS4 Tyrants and re-rolling wounds on Devourers). With the points saved you can toss in a goodly sized unit of gargoyles to give this Tyrant a cover save and an additional unit of bodies on the field.

So what do you think Dakka? Do you feel the Swarmlord's superiority in specific roles warrants taking him over the generally more flexible Flyrant?

the swarm lord is the best close combat model in the game right now imo. he fears no one and nothing. The ability to make your opponent reroll invulnerables is crazy good. I don't play against bugs very much but I suspect there are more efficient things in your book... he's really expensive. But when you've got to roll out the big boys in assault, the swarm lord is the final word in close combat mayhem...

I just think that it's waaaay too expensive to put wings on a Tyrant, not to mention that if you go that route he hasn't got the Tyrant Guard to stop him getting picked off by long-range fire.

One Tyrant Guard costs the same as wings, and you can always still Run in the shooting phase (especially if you use the Swarmlord). I don't know...its personal preference I think, but I'd rather go with extra protection for an already expensive model rather than extra manouverability.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I just think that it's waaaay too expensive to put wings on a Tyrant, not to mention that if you go that route he hasn't got the Tyrant Guard to stop him getting picked off by long-range fire.

If left out in the open, you're certainly right. Behind a layer of Gargoyles, though, he'll get a cover save since the wings from the Gargoyles will obscure at least 50% of the Flyrant's body. Granted, the Flyrant + Gargoyles will cost about as much as the Swarmlord + Guard and anything that actually does hit the Flyrant can't be allocated elsewhere.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:One Tyrant Guard costs the same as wings, and you can always still Run in the shooting phase (especially if you use the Swarmlord).

True, running is certainly handy but 6+d6" is much, much slower than 12+d6" if we're talking about just the maneuverability. If the Swarmlord chooses to use a psychic power, which are all Shooting Attacks, then he's even slower without the Run roll.

I'm probably going to keep trying out the Swarmlord and finding what works for him and making full use of all his extra powers.

I faced the Swarmlord with a Marine list the other day...I kited him and his two Hive Guard around the board for five turns. He accomplished 100% of nothing except giving a cover save to a couple Zoanthropes standing behind him, and provided my Rhinos with a cover save against the Zoanthrope lances.

He's too slow to be of major use except as a counter-assault unit. Park him someplace and dare your opponent to get near him.
Winged Tyrants are much harder to ignore, since they can be in your hair by Turn 3 at the latest.

Cheaper is better for the new Nids, giving your tyrant guard or a pants load of upgrades just means when your opponent kills him you're losing much more of your army then you want.

From the last dex to his one Nids lost access to durability (outside of the venomthrope, but its a tricky to have one cover everyone) and got massive point hikes while losing a majority of its shooting bite. So that leaves one option, cheap and disposable.

I only run the swarmlord in my Nid drop army, because its the only way to get the 2+ reserve roll. While all the other nasties are in the heart of my enemy he just runs towards the nearest combat, and silly as it is people ignore him til he starts dropping paroxysm. In other games he dies as easy as my 170pt tyrants so I dont bother with him.

Kirbinator wrote:lets something else Outflank that otherwise couldn't. Hive guard coming in on a back flank makes artillery sad.

Sorry mate only troops can be made outflanky by the hive commander.

Most people do warriors or hormagaunts and in some extreme cases a tervigon

To Kirbinator - You might be thinking about the trygon that lets infantry use its tunnel to arrive instead of arriving as normal. I was crestfallen when I learned I couldn't let Raveners use it...

Swarmlord is amazing.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Swarmlord is amazing.

Thanks for that STUNNING Tactical insight. If you don't have something useful to add, try adding nothing. A high post count isn't as important as being regarded as a thoughtful and insightful person, which isn't accomplished by spamming up 1 liner posts.

TheRhino wrote:I faced the Swarmlord with a Marine list the other day...I kited him and his two Hive Guard around the board for five turns. He accomplished 100% of nothing except giving a cover save to a couple Zoanthropes standing behind him, and provided my Rhinos with a cover save against the Zoanthrope lances.

He's too slow to be of major use except as a counter-assault unit. Park him someplace and dare your opponent to get near him.
Winged Tyrants are much harder to ignore, since they can be in your hair by Turn 3 at the latest.

30" + 5d6" Averages out to almost 48". If you move something that far and don't see combat then....you suck. He should be locking stuff down with raveners, genestealers outflanking, gargoyles, etc, and then using the Swarmlord to mash it into a fine paste. He must have deployed really badly, had it stuck in reserves (Dawn of war maybe?) or have been severely out played.

The swarmlord is the hammer of a nid army. Anything it connects with is basically done. This issue is getting it to where it's needed.

I've personally been using a winged tyrant the last couple of weeks and am LOVING the extra speed. The extra speed comes at the price of being more fragile, and needs some back up in HtH to make sure it's target gets squished though. Winged, bonesword, lashwhip + Old Adversary and 12 poisoned genestealers is slowed. I've routed virtually every unit they've come across in 1 combat phase. Re-rolling to hit AND wound with rending is super blender-tastic.

Well a flyrant isn't in anyway restricted about taking tyrant guards.
Its allways fun to march up with your little buddy abusing cover rules for a turn or two, and then after its dead jumping up to eat whatever you like

HoverBoy wrote:Well a flyrant isn't in anyway restricted about taking tyrant guards.

They are, however, restricted from joining a brood of Tyrant Guard and getting any protection from them. (Shieldwall, page 35)

Shieldwall says a single hive tyrant can join like an IC. A flyrant is a single hive tyrant...what happened?

*wait re-reading the faq now...

Q: If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of
Tyrant Guard, is it treated as an Independent Character
for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks (i.e.
independent characters who are monstrous creatures
can be targeted separately from the unit) and assaults
(i.e. independent characters always count as separate
units in an assault)?
A: No.

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave
a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them?
A: No.

I'm having difficulty reading that first one...it's not treated as an IC for shooting and not an IC for assault (I allocate wounds)?

Did I read that right? But the 2nd Q is easy,no joining and then leaving to fly.

To quote many:

"Derp"

I read it twice before posting and STILL inserted a line.

mrwhoop = correct
Mostly. Editing to add that this "mostly" can be ignored.

Tyrant Guard can be joined, but there is never permission to LEAVE the Tyrant Guard, so you could not claim cover saves from them then have it leave the Tyrant Guard.

Really glad you posted that--I have apparently mis-read that rule for 7 months now.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwhoop wrote:
I'm having difficulty reading that first one...it's not treated as an IC for shooting and not an IC for assault (I allocate wounds)?

Did I read that right?

Yes. It is basically like a captain or somesuch. It can never be picked out.

So to sum up,

a flyrant could take tyrant guards, could take cover saves (if applicable) but can't wing it until the guards die. Hoverboy did say "after its dead". Seems like it could work if you're opponent doesn't throw so much fire that the whole unit dies out. Or leave them alone to hoof 6+d6 inches a turn.

Another good discussion

You could also move the Tyrant Guard around the table for a while then join the Tyrant(/Flyrant/Swarmlord) to them at a later point.
If for whatever reason, you wanted to.

mrwhoop wrote:To Kirbinator - You might be thinking about the trygon that lets infantry use its tunnel to arrive instead of arriving as normal. I was crestfallen when I learned I couldn't let Raveners use it...

You are correct sir, I was thinking of the tunnel's rules! Good thing the only time I actually used that ability was with a bunch of Hormies, so at least I didn't cheat anyone!

TheRhino wrote:
I faced the Swarmlord with a Marine list the other day...I kited him and his two Hive Guard around the board for five turns. He accomplished 100% of nothing except giving a cover save to a couple Zoanthropes standing behind him, and provided my Rhinos with a cover save against the Zoanthrope lances.

He's too slow to be of major use except as a counter-assault unit. Park him someplace and dare your opponent to get near him.
Winged Tyrants are much harder to ignore, since they can be in your hair by Turn 3 at the latest.

This has mostly been my experience with the Swarmlord. People don't go anywhere near him. Now, granted, this has certainly helped in some regards because keeping him within charge range of an objective or two means nobody's going near that area at all.

It's not that the Swarmlord usually gets absolutely no combat time in at all, but it is never before turn 3, usually turn 4 when it happens after pinning things down and closing things in. One fun thing that I have been doing is use my Mawloc to shove things towards my Swarmlord and friends. People kiting just outside of that 12" mark get shoved a good few inches in a particular direction (assuming they aren't all annihilated by the S6 AP2 large blast). It was very handy in this past Daemons game.

Twice in one thread, that's a sig

mrwhoop wrote:Twice in one thread, that's a sig

I managed to avoid being sigged by Gwar! for months, when he was on his crusade. And now this!

It would have been perfect if it were not for those pesky kids. . .

I said claim covers from them until they die and when thry are feel free to fly up and eat stuff.
Oh and the rules for Shieldwall make no mention of winged tyrants in anyway being forbidden to join.

Flyrants can join Guards, but can't leave them, which negates the flying part.....kinda pointless.

I love the Swarmlord, even without guards he always spooks my opponent into paying him so much attention that he misses things elsewhere.

Razgryz wrote:Flyrants can join Guards, but can't leave them, which negates the flying part.....kinda pointless.

Dude allocate hits to the guards they die yoy are free to fly, can't believe i posted this a 3rd time

HoverBoy wrote:

Razgryz wrote:Flyrants can join Guards, but can't leave them, which negates the flying part.....kinda pointless.

Dude allocate hits to the guards they die yoy are free to fly, can't believe i posted this a 3rd time

I'm not sure if basing your strategy on taking four unsaved wounds on T6 3+ armor before "springing the trap" is a good idea.

Kirbinator wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

Razgryz wrote:Flyrants can join Guards, but can't leave them, which negates the flying part.....kinda pointless.

Dude allocate hits to the guards they die yoy are free to fly, can't believe i posted this a 3rd time

I'm not sure if basing your strategy on taking four unsaved wounds on T6 3+ armor before "springing the trap" is a good idea.

Uhh.. play against SW. Long Fangs with ML... nasty.

I just sayd its possible, never done actually

It does have potential tho.

I say stick with the Swarmlord. Yeah, he is expensive and slow, but it is a very good unit for powering up your army and area denial. There is also no really good way to deal with him in assault.
The bloodthirster example is a pretty good one. If a Bloodthirster charges the swarmlord, swarmlord and friends will win combat and kill the Bloodthirster before he can do too much damage. But a Flying tyrant will most likely get punched out by a bloodthirster.
Yes, Swarm Lord is more expensive, but there is no good way to kill him in close combat and I think that is a valuable ability.

Excuse me but thirsters arent for flyrants to handle thats what toxin gaunts do.
Oh and killing a monster with a more expensive monster isn't that big a deal.

It's very common to create a majority cluster of objectives in seize ground, and this always seems to be where the big combat monsters like the Swarmlord excels, the opponent is going to have to try and claim or contest some of those, which means they're coming right to you, or waiting for you to get to them.