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I've just finished reading tales of heresy, and the more I read about the emperor the more I find myself disliking him! he used to be touted as the savior of the imperium and was fair and just bringing light into the darkness, but what i've read so far recently he comes across as a self centred egotistical megalomaniac, who has a penchant for bringing war to whoever he pleases and makes planets fold before him with an iron will to serve his own gains and not for the benefit of the imperium as a whole, does anyone think this is the case? or can you correct me if you believe i'm reading the wrong message in it? even the story about prospero in the HH books series makes me feel really sorry for magnus when his offer was to help not hinder the emperor and then he turns the savage wolves of fenris led by leman russ onto him. I just don't get it! I was all for fighting for the emperor bringing light to the dark and now i think i've been tricked.

HERESY!

yeah, I kind of think the same thing, its all part of the tragedy of 40k really. I felt exactly the same thing after reading A Thousand Sons, I was really sympathetic to Magnus and what he put himself through. I guess that's the point of the Horus Heresy being such a significant event since all the rebels thought they were doing it for the right reasons. When I was a kid I read all the stories and was completely on the Emporer's side but as I got older and saw the different prespectives I began to realise that in many ways he was just as bad. I think your for the most part right there, but the more important issue, (at least from my perspective) is that what the Imperium is now is not necessarily what the Emporer would have wanted it do be!

That being said, you're a disgusting Heretic and you should be put to the sword you warp spawned filth!

Just kidding, the Emperor loves you!

Nahh, it's actually the emplyees that are the problem. The Emporer is basically a vegetable on life support. A kind of sick, gruesome, detestable life support...but hey, who's counting?

I don't think the Emperor was was pulling together the far flung worlds of humanity for a kumbaya moment. It's funny the "self centered egotistical megalomaniac" description is exactly what the forces of Chaos wanted Horus to see. Maybe the writers of the Horus Heresy books have gone over to Chaos?

Kumbaya moment, that's priceless...don't say it too loudly though, next thing you'll know they'll have a campfire model diarama with Horus, the Emporer and the other Primarch's all roasting space marshmallows around a campfire and singing row, row, row your Battlecruiser!

Jihadnik wrote:Kumbaya moment, that's priceless...don't say it too loudly though, next thing you'll know they'll have a campfire model diarama with Horus, the Emporer and the other Primarch's all roasting space marshmallows around a campfire and singing row, row, row your Battlecruiser!

Later on they all talk Angron into hunting snipes.

Well, its all a matter of perspective. Obviously Imperial sources will make him seem good, and Chaos makes him seem evil.

Thats why I think its unfair to consider anyone good/evil in this game, there's so many perspectives.


I should note that the Emporer did not want the Space Wolves to destroy Prospero, Horus tricked Leman Russ to spark a rebellion. So really it seems unfair to me to blame either him or the SW for that. Obviously The Thousand Sons will make it seem the opposite because of the perspective once again.

In fact, I kind of sympathise with the Emporer, I mean, he didn't want to be worshiped as a god, and I really don't think its his fault the Imperium turned out the way it did.

EDIT: The Imperial Creed was originally that science is god

The Emperor is not evil, the religion born from the suspicion surrounding science after the age of strife is evil.

He wanted humanity to worship science as he did when he created the space marines and took control of Earth. Imagine in five hundred years time, the world descends into warlord combat with incredibly advanced technology developed on our bastions of technological development staged on planets across the galaxy. Apocalypse.

A new era of scrambling for power dawns. The Emperor (who is the first human psyker, and the most powerful ever) develops genetically engineered warriors and takes control. It is important to realise that the Emperor was born of the reincarnation of every human "shaman" over the history of the human race, this is where human psychic potential comes from.

The Emperor launches the crusade across the galaxy and reclaims the lost worlds.

During the crusade and subsequent Horus Heresy, the Imperium slowly starts to worship him as a god rather than as a leader. Science is not trusted after what it caused last time humans bowed to it.

In the Horus Heresy books there is A LOT of explanation, the reason Lorgar (word bearers) turned to Chaos was because the Emperor chastised him for worshiping him as a god rather than as the savior of mankind.

In the even more Grimdark Future of the 4th Ed rulebook, didn't the Emprah eat the souls of psykers that were brought on the Black Ships?

Sounds pretty bad to me.

nerdfest
the thing you have to realize about the 40k universe.... there are no good guys.... just us (brutal repressive ignorant backwards violent fanatical tyrant-worshipping techno-barbarians who want to enslave you) ... and the alternative (murderous blood-crazed satan-worshipping techno-barbarian psycho-paths who will torture you to death in a horrendous ritual to their dark gods and then devour your soul) The emperor is the best of a bad situation

All things considered orks might be the least repressive race to live under... they don't torture people for no reason and are too stupid to systematically repress anyone. As long as you aren't in their immediate field of vision you're probably safe....
AF

Well, from what I gather Tau arent too bad...as long as you do what they think you should

Monster Rain wrote:In the even more Grimdark Future of the 4th Ed rulebook, didn't the Emprah eat the souls of psykers that were brought on the Black Ships?

Sounds pretty bad to me.

I always thought that had something to do with the Astronomicon, the psykers channel the Emporers powers into it, but many are too weak to survive it for long.

There is literally no such thing as a good guy in 40k

All very insightful, thank you, it's always going to be a hotly debated topic that will appear many many times I think, but yes I now believe we choose the lesser of two evil and maybe if we want to 'play' an army with it's heart in the right place we should look at renegade chapters e.g soul drinkers? I can't think of any others at the moment, but I digress, maybe the emperor was trying to do what he thought was right for the imperium but just got carried away with it like so many political powers of our time, started off with good intentions and then got hungry for more power to accomplish their goals? and maybe chaos isn't as 'bad' as we think? could there be a spark of what is right still left in any of them? hmmm more questions

Hmm, no...I'm pretty sure chaos is as bad as we think, although I like the post modern slant you got going there! Nice and Heretical!

The imperium is a twisted, shattered wreck of the Emperor's original vision for mankind. Trapped as he is on the golden throne he can neither rule effectively nor be reincarnated. So basically he's right where the forces of evil want him.

What the emperor wanted was to unite all of mankind in a harmonious empire under his beneficent and immortal rule, to replace fanatical religions (ie chaos worship) with reason and science, to exterminate (or at least repress) the alien races that threaten humanity's survival, and to recover the lost technologies of mankind's golden age. When Horus rebelled the plan got side-tracked and he was never able to complete it. Since the people who took over after him - the Primarchs and the High Lords of Terra - were incapable of even comprehending his plans, let alone putting them into effect, everything just kind of went to 10,000 years later the galaxy is, as a result, a pretty twisted place.

Chaos is basically the primordial stuff of evil.... the warp is the psychic residue of thousands of generations of humans, whose thoughts are mostly ugly and evil.... hence the beings that dwell in the warp are utterly twisted.

someone mentioned the Tau yeah I forgot about them. They're pretty benign but that's only because they don't have any idea what a messed up universe they're stepping into. Once the innocence wears off I guess they'll be pretty brutal too.
AF

it's weird i'm not keen on being called a heretic but i'm not sure how i'm feeling at the moment! like someone cheated on me and I can't just get dressed go out and pick up! weird :-)

Well, try this then. You see, you're thinking about it from too high a level. You see, you read the fluff from the point of view of someone who knows all the truth and lies. The trick is to pick your side and then imagine you're the lowly soldier and what they would get told about what to believe. That's why the Imperial Guard always sing the Emporer's praises even when he says, march across that minefield to save the tanks. Charge that Daemon with your bayonet and don't worry about those eldar that will torture you and eat your brain! I'll protect you in death...

You can't be cheated on if you never know you're being cheated on!

Now get back on that cyber horse and ride soldier, the Emporer will always protect!

From what little I know of the Tau they seem pretty far from benign. Anyway, no race who extols the virtues of 'The Greater Good' has ever been benign or serving anything but themselves.

well thanks jihadnik, I may just jump on my steed (thunderwolf) remember the saga's from old and go down the local pub with my mates from the raven Guard and Exorcists and see if we can start a good old heretical brawl with some Kroot (check my pics I painted all of 'em) alright i've steeled my resolve and the marines will prevail for the good of mankind! I can sleep again at night. ;-)

I think the Emperor needs to be judged from the point of view of what he was trying to accomplish. He wanted to unite mankind and save it from itself and the forces of Chaos. He knew he was on a strict time table because with the abatement of the warp storms swirling through the galaxy after the birth of Slaanesh it was only a matter of time before the Chaos gods recovered and turned their attentions to Eldar 2.0 - namely mankind and devoured their souls as well.

He needed to unite humanity and create a way to get them out of the Warp as quickly as possible. That meant he needed to make hard decisions that in many ways could be seen or judged as "Evil" but if you think in Ends justifying the means sense you can't save humanity wirthout breaking some eggs. If it meant forcibly bringing humanity to compliance then so be it. If you read some of the Heresy novels there are instances such as Fulgrim where they encounter a human empire that was fully integrated with an alien empire that was wiped out because they would not submit even though the humans were more than content to live on as they have. Even in the opening chapter of Horus Rising we have Horus leading an assault that destroys an empire of humans that was perfectly content living without Terra's overlordship.

The emperor was pushing his Crusade to bring the galaxy into compliance as quickly as possible. He chastised the Word bearers for being slow in their advances because they were taking too long focusing on building churches and monuments to him in captured territories. Unfortunately that one act sparked what came next as it made Logar turn to Chaos for the validation he seemed to so desperately need. Frankly the Primarchs in general all come off as petulant children in many respects in the Heresy novels but that's a topic for another thread.

After Ulanar the Emperor hands off the reigns to his most trusted "son" and races back to Terra to get the Webway construction completed.

The Emperor could not afford to allow Chaos any foot holds in the human race to muck about in and his eventual goal, I believe, was to have humanity essentially become the Eldar. In other words a psychic race that no longer required the Warp through the use of the webway. Horus' little temper tantrum changed all that and forced humanity into this slow slide.

In order to accomplish his "noble" goal of saving humanity he had to do some wretched things. The road to hell my friends.