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I play a weekly game with a couple of friends of mine that I've gotten into 40k. They play 1500pts of Tau and 1500pts of IG on one team against my 3000 points of Nids. I've been beating them pretty solid the last couple games. The guy who plays IG is pretty hard on himself and is starting to get frustrated. Now I could run a little easier list for them, but they aren't stupid and would know what I was doing, and would not appreciate me "taking it easy" on them. I'd like to try and recommend a build for him to use, but I've only run IG a few times. I was wondering if the dakka community could help out.

My List

HQ

- Hive Tyrant (LW/BS, TL Devs w/ BLW, Wings, Leech Essence, Paroxysm, Hive Commander, Old Adversary)

Elite

- Hive Guard Brood x3
- Hive Guard Brood x3
- Doom of Malan'tai (Spod)

Troops

- Genestealer Brood x 10 (Broodlord upgrade with Implant attack, Toxin Sacs)
- Genestealer Brood x 10 (Broodlord upgrade with Implant attack, Toxin Sacs)
- Genestealer Brood x 10 (Broodlord upgrade with Implant attack, Toxin Sacs)
- Hormagaunt Brood x 12 (Toxin Sacs)
- Termagant Brood x 10
- Tervigon (AG, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Regen)

Fast Attack

- Gargoyle Brood x 24 (AG, Toxin Sacs)
- Gargoyle Brood x 24 (AG, Toxin Sacs)
- Tyranid Shrike Brood x 6 (Rending Claws, Scytals, Toxin Sacs)

Heavy Support

- Trygon
- Trygon
- Mawloc

Gargs provide mobile cover for the Shrikes and winged Tyrant, Hormies and Stealers outflank, Termies and Tervigon form a fire base with the Hive Guard, Trygons move up the flank, Doom and the Mawloc drop in the middle of the highest concentration of non-vehicle units.

The Tau player usually has Shas'O with a couple of shield drones, a few crisis suit teams (usually flamer and fusion), a unit or two of firewarriors, kroot squad with 10 x kroot and 10 x kroot hounds, a squad or two of pathfinders, and usually 2 full teams of Broadsides. Broadsides, FWs, Pathfinders, and Kroot form a firebase while the crisis suits play mid-field or DS into my back line.

Any thoughts on what you would take and do as the IG player?

make him figure it out on his own. believe me once he does you're going to have your hands full.

DoM makes it hard to say, but I think I'd have as many plasma guns and templates as I could cram in. Lascannons are a plus too. My standard build would be a good starting point.

CCS with 4 Plasmaguns
Carapace armor
Chimera

Meltavets with 7 shotguns
Chimera

Meltavets with 7 shotguns
Chimera

PCS with 4 flamers
20 man blob with commissar, two flamers, and two power weapons
20 man blob with commissar, two flamers, and two power weapons

2 hellhounds

Vendetta

2 basilisks

---

This gives you hard hitting AP2 for MCs, guys that can opt between 3 AP1 shots, or 10 S3 shots, a couple decent tarpits that could well wipe a unit or two out, 4 flamer death incarnate, ranged templates capable of ignoring any armor shy of MCs, vendetta for additional transport/MC killing, and the bassies are there for anything the rest of it couldn't wipe out.

The only thing I would have problems with would be the deep striking DoM. That guy is vicious. I would just count on being able to deal it enough wounds before it crippled my squads. This is one of those situations that an Officer of the Fleet would come in handy though.

What does he have for models? What is he normally trying to use? The nice part about the list above is that it's not TOO tailored to killing Nids, so it would actually be usable in other situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:make him figure it out on his own. believe me once he does you're going to have your hands full.

While I feel like this is hardly a helpful response, I can't help but somewhat agree. I've never had any issues with Nids as IG, and the fact that your friend is should either be considered a testament to your skill as a player or his overall newness. Typically all the games I've had against Nids have been a fairly point-and-click thing where I just lay waste to the next closest thing to me. Generally I'm tabling them.

Unfortunately its always harder than it seems for the team players when playing 2v1 like this, at least ive always found that to be the case. Without sitting down together to streamline their lists, balancing the relative strengths and weaknesses then it becomes harder. Have you thought about just taking them on one at a time at 1500pts so they can both get a better feel for their developing armies?
Failing that, Ive always found a couple of Hellhounds are a good starter for ten against the gribbly hordes. He might also try Chimeras with hvy flamers/bolters as poor-mans hounds to watch the flanks. The Tau Broadsides should be targeting the bigger ones which just leaves maybe some mortars to harass and some standard squads to speedbump incoming stealers before they hit the gunline. Stall them in the open, get cut down, then in with the hvy flamers. Leman Russ tanks of any flavour are ace but against Nids I can recommend either the MBT or Exterminator as good choices. I could also imagine the Punisher coming into its own against those gargoyles.
This is clearly not comprehensive but hopefully a bit of help

daedalus wrote:DoM makes it hard to say, but I think I'd have...

DoM usually isn't too much of an issue. They know he can be nasty, so he is usually splatted within a turn of hitting the table by the Tau player's railguns or fusion blasters.

The biggest problem I think is his he's still pretty new to the game and to the army so he's having trouble settling in to what really works for him. We've played various games for many many years, and he's one of the best wargamers I've known, so it's a bit odd to see him struggling here. I'm certainly no great player and am somewhat new in my own right (only played a bit of 3rd/4th ed and have recently returned to the game). The first 4-5 games that I played Nids, they did pretty well against me as I felt out the units, but now that I've settled in, they are having a harder time of it.

He usually runs a platoon blob loaded w0ith power weapons, a vet squad or two in chimeras (the loadouts on the vets are usually not great, failing to really specialize in a particular role), a couple of vanilla russes, and some sort of arty (usually bassies or griffons) and a cheap CCS.

As far as models, it's not too much of an issue. I own a few different armies and we proxy a LOT (I'm running 3k nids with only about 600-700 points of actual nid models). The only IG stuff we would have trouble with is multiple valks/vendettas as we only have one model for those, and it's a tough model to proxy.

Unfortunately its always harder than it seems for the team players when playing 2v1 like this, at least ive always found that to be the case. Without sitting down together to streamline their lists, balancing the relative strengths and weaknesses then it becomes harder. Have you thought about just taking them on one at a time at 1500pts so they can both get a better feel for their developing armies?
Failing that, Ive always found a couple of Hellhounds are a good starter for ten against the gribbly hordes. He might also try Chimeras with hvy flamers/bolters as poor-mans hounds to watch the flanks. The Tau Broadsides should be targeting the bigger ones which just leaves maybe some mortars to harass and some standard squads to speedbump incoming stealers before they hit the gunline. Stall them in the open, get cut down, then in with the hvy flamers. Leman Russ tanks of any flavour are ace but against Nids I can recommend either the MBT or Exterminator as good choices. I could also imagine the Punisher coming into its own against those gargoyles.
This is clearly not comprehensive but hopefully a bit of help

I know the 2v1 setup is a pain, but we usually only have time to run one game a week and it's more about the chance for us all to hang out, so I hate to leave anyone out. We have been talking about having each guy bring a 1500 point and a 3000 point and randomly determining teams, then allowing the 2 guys with 1500 points to talk and change up to 500 points on each list before we determine terrain and deployment.

Tell him to grab a pair of Hellhounds. They'll wreck your Genestealers.

Yeah, I think a couple of hellhounds would do wonders for him, I also think they are starting to understand that it's a bad idea to cozy up in a corner, unless they can lock out that flank with terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do you think about something along the lines of this :

(1485pts Total)

HQ
Company Command Squad - Carapace Armour, 3x Meltagun, Officer of the Fleet, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Company Commander (Laspistol, Power Weapon)

Troops
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Veteran Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Veteran Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)

Fast Attack
Hellhound - Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer
Hellhound - Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer
Vendetta

Heavy Support
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer

Considering the guy running Tau will have something along the lines of:

(1495pts Total)

HQ
Shas'El Commander - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, 2x Shield Drone, Targetting Array
Shas'Vre Bodyguard - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Targetting Array
Shas'Vre Bodyguard - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Shield Drone, Targetting Array

Elites
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
2x Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
2x Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone

Troops
6x Fire Warriors
Kroot Carnivore Squad - 10x Kroot, 10x Kroot Hound

Fast Attack
4x Pathfinders - Devilfish

Heavy Support
Broadside Battlesuit Team:
3x Shas'Ui - Multi-Tracker, SMS
Broadside Battlesuit Team:
3x Shas'Ui - Multi-Tracker, SMS

Maelstrom808 wrote:He usually runs a platoon blob loaded with power weapons.

Do they also have commissars?

In any case, your nid list throws a lot of points into mediumly expensive units. This means that the guard should handle your stuff like he handles space marines.

With a few russes tacked on, there are basically two ways he can go.

On the one hand, he can pack in plasma mechvets wherein the chimeras have heavy flamers. This will keep his casualties down and plasma and heavy flamers (lots and lots of them) shouldn't have too much of an issue against stealers and TMCs

On the other hand, he can go gangbusters with infantry. Yeah, there are a lot of nasty units in your list, and can do a terrible amount of damage to infantry. That said, he can take, what, 3 stubborn guardsmen per genestealer, whose saves are no better than the guardsmen's. With an infantry horde of his own, most of your stuff will charge in and just stick to his power blobs like flies on fly paper (pun intended).

Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I think a couple of hellhounds would do wonders for him, I also think they are starting to understand that it's a bad idea to cozy up in a corner, unless they can lock out that flank with terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do you think about something along the lines of this :

(1485pts Total)

HQ
Company Command Squad - Carapace Armour, 3x Meltagun, Officer of the Fleet, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Company Commander (Laspistol, Power Weapon)

Troops
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Veteran Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Vox Caster, Chimera (Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Veteran Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)

Fast Attack
Hellhound - Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer
Hellhound - Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer
Vendetta

Heavy Support
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer

Considering the guy running Tau will have something along the lines of:

(1495pts Total)

HQ
Shas'El Commander - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, 2x Shield Drone, Targetting Array
Shas'Vre Bodyguard - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Targetting Array
Shas'Vre Bodyguard - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Shield Drone, Targetting Array

Elites
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
2x Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
2x Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team:
Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array
Team Leader Shas'Ui - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone

Troops
6x Fire Warriors
Kroot Carnivore Squad - 10x Kroot, 10x Kroot Hound

Fast Attack
4x Pathfinders - Devilfish

Heavy Support
Broadside Battlesuit Team:
3x Shas'Ui - Multi-Tracker, SMS
Broadside Battlesuit Team:
3x Shas'Ui - Multi-Tracker, SMS

For the IG, i'd drop all that extra armor and those Voxes.... more points for more guns
i like the Manticore but i think he'd be better served with a couple of Russes. maybe even
Demolishers for that matter...

I didn't put any russes in because I usually take those out in CC so the extra armor values don't really help him there. Having the extra shots from a hull lascannon or sponsons would be nice, but then you are getting pretty high on points. I took the manticores instead because I usually position my Hive Guard broods and Tervigon where they are pretty safe from LoS weaponry, so it gives him something that can dig them out as well as doing horrific damage to the hordes of gargs, genestealers, and shrikes no matter how well I hide them in the initial turns.

The extra armor is there because if I get into CC and pull up a stunned result, it gives him a better chance of getting the vehicle out of there, making me hit on 6s the next turn and possibly saving the vehicle. It is quite an extra bit of points though, and I was kinda iffy on it. The vox casters could go as well. I put them in because he does love using orders...but since everything is in tin cans, it doesn't make much sense to have them.

Do they also have commissars?

In any case, your nid list throws a lot of points into mediumly expensive units. This means that the guard should handle your stuff like he handles space marines.

With a few russes tacked on, there are basically two ways he can go.

On the one hand, he can pack in plasma mechvets wherein the chimeras have heavy flamers. This will keep his casualties down and plasma and heavy flamers (lots and lots of them) shouldn't have too much of an issue against stealers and TMCs

On the other hand, he can go gangbusters with infantry. Yeah, there are a lot of nasty units in your list, and can do a terrible amount of damage to infantry. That said, he can take, what, 3 stubborn guardsmen per genestealer, whose saves are no better than the guardsmen's. With an infantry horde of his own, most of your stuff will charge in and just stick to his power blobs like flies on fly paper (pun intended).

He builds his blobs properly. One commissar and all of his sarges with power weapons. He might not be employing them as well as he could though. They usually become a non-factor as I'll assault them with my own tarpit (gargs) after hitting him with some fire and Paroxysm. He'll beat the gargs eventually, but by the time all is said and done, it's late in the game and they are too weak and/or out of position to do anything else. Or if things are looking bad I can toss something nasty into the mix like a unit of genestealers or the shrikes on the turn following the charge, avoiding most of the power weapons he could throw my way into the nasty unit, and doing enough damage that he's probably not going to be around on my next turn. It gets worse if DoM drops in while he is engaged in melee.

I wouldn't take the heavy armor. It's nice, but even if you keep the vehicle from moving, and then blow up the vehicle next turn (worst case), then all the survivors inside are going to be able to open up on you. He should also be hiding his infantry in cover, forcing you to come to him. Your lack of frag grenades is going to be fairly crippling when blobs of guardsmen are hitting you first.

Yeah, they usually put the kroot squad into available cover, so the infantry squad is left out in the open. Alright, revised list.

(1500pts Total)

HQ
Company Command Squad - Carapace Armour, 3x Meltagun, Officer of the Fleet, Vox Caster, Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Company Commander (Laspistol, CCW)

Troops
Infantry Squad - Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)
Infantry Squad - Vox Caster, Commissar (Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon), Sergeant (Laspistol, Power Weapon)
Platoon Command Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Platoon Commander (CCW, Laspistol)
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer), Veteran Sergeant (Laspistol, CCW)

Fast Attack
Hellhound - Heavy Flamer
Hellhound - Heavy Flamer
Vendetta

Heavy Support
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer
Manticore Rocket Launcher - Heavy Flamer

I like it. I'll give it a . Do please let us know how it works out for him.

Thanks, now I just gotta get him to try it