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Greetings all!

Our group has been discussing the title question.
Can the Tervigon spawn while in reserve?

I came here for a copy of the INAT FAQ to help find a solid answer, but our group continues to "discuss" the topic.
I am very curious to your thoughts Pro and Con on the subject.

Thanks!

I'd go with no. There's some back and forth in general about whether or not models can affect the game whilst off table, but in this case, it's a pretty solid no.

The reasoning involves the mechanic by which the Tervigon spawns. You place the models within 6" of the tervigon... if it's not on the table, there's no way to measure ranges to the Tervigon. Further, you're required to place the models on the board within 6" of the Tervigon... if it isn't on the board, "within 6" of the Tervigon" would, by necessity, be off the board as well, and the rule set doesn't permit for placing models off the board (save for transports and reserves- and spawned models are neither in transports, nor in reserves).

EDIT:

Basically, it comes down to not having permission to do so- there's no rules governing placing.creation of models "off-board," ergo, it cannot be done.

I do believe Mr. Potato Head is correct.

The rules governing the Tervigon's spawning ability are a bit sketchy in my opinion, but it does specify both placement and distances, neither of which apply in reserve.

I suppose technically you could say he's spawning them in reserve, then they immediately count as destroyed - since they don't confer a killpoint when killed, it doesn't matter either way!

As with most debates about "does X happen while in reserves" there is no rules covering it, but potato makes a good argument against it. Just to correct Saint though, they would confer a KP in that scenario unless I'm missing a special rule that states spawned gaunts don't grant KPs.

BlueDagger wrote:As with most debates about "does X happen while in reserves" there is no rules covering it, but potato makes a good argument against it. Just to correct Saint though, they would confer a KP in that scenario unless I'm missing a special rule that states spawned gaunts don't grant KPs.

You could be right. I don't have my Nid codex on me, so I could be recalling incorrectly.

Yep, no exemption on KPs for spawned termies.

Then I stand corrected, but my original point still stands.

Yeah this is a pretty solid no. As there is no mechanism for placing the models on the table within 6" of the Tervigon which is a manditory part of the rule.

Some things clearly can work from reserve (i.e. Hive Commander on the Hive Tyrant), somethings are a bit of a grey area (unlimited range hoods and Eldar Runes) and somethings are just a clear no like in this instance.

That would be a no,as has been noted,the big bug has to be on the table to be able to start pumping out gaunts.

There's also the sneaky way of looking at it:
1. Units are deployed to reserves, and may enter reserves only through deployment unless specifically allowed to do so at a later stage (Swooping Hawks Skyleap).
2. The units are deployed within 6" of the big bug, which will be off the table.
3. Units which for any reason move off the table (which may not be a normal voluntary movement) count as casualties at the end of the game unless they've arrived back again through any form of special rule.
4. Since the units don't have a special rule which allow them to be spawned directly into reserves, they would simply be removed as casualties at the end of the game since they aren't allowed to enter play.

Of course, that's unless you use a common rule of thumb: no, you aren't allowed to do anything with a unit that's not on the table. (Sort of annoying if you're Eldar since you generally want whatever the Farseer is travelling in/with to be Fortuned) I would go so far as to say no unit not currently on the battlefield are allowed to affect it unless the effect specify that it works from reserves (Eldar Autarch).

I personally think its a matter of common sense. Not on board? Not in play. Thats the way i see it.

Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

kartofelkopf wrote:he reasoning involves the mechanic by which the Tervigon spawns. You place the models within 6" of the tervigon... if it's not on the table, there's no way to measure ranges to the Tervigon.

Nuuh! The BISS rule comes into play, and you can spawn them within six inches of the unit, because he'd be sitting somewhere, you coult put units within 6", but they just couldn't do anything.

you could have 2 zillion gaunts sitting around for 7 turns, because you decided to use Because I said So.

Scott-S6 wrote:Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Example: So your SM captain is in the space ship. Its exactly the same as him not being in the game at all, UNTIL he arrives via Deep Strike.

Tyrant's alive rule? He must be alive!!! brood-wise he may not even have been spawned yet! so NO his ability would only come into play when he actually enters the game as a model on the table, that can move, shoot, fight, and on the same field as my BA's? Die!

arkayne819 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Example: So your SM captain is in the space ship. Its exactly the same as him not being in the game at all, UNTIL he arrives via Deep Strike.

Tyrant's alive rule? He must be alive!!! brood-wise he may not even have been spawned yet! so NO his ability would only come into play when he actually enters the game as a model on the table, that can move, shoot, fight, and on the same field as my BA's? Die!

Quit trying to define RAW based on fluff, that doesn't fly around here.

Use YOUR common sense. Fluff /= rules. I'm sick of having to say it.

The Hive Tyrant's ability works regardless of whether he's held in reserve or on the table. But this is off-topic, so quit bringing it up.

SaintHazard wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Example: So your SM captain is in the space ship. Its exactly the same as him not being in the game at all, UNTIL he arrives via Deep Strike.

Tyrant's alive rule? He must be alive!!! brood-wise he may not even have been spawned yet! so NO his ability would only come into play when he actually enters the game as a model on the table, that can move, shoot, fight, and on the same field as my BA's? Die!

Quit trying to define RAW based on fluff, that doesn't fly around here.

Use YOUR common sense. Fluff /= rules. I'm sick of having to say it.

The Hive Tyrant's ability works regardless of whether he's held in reserve or on the table. But this is off-topic, so quit bringing it up.

Its not about Fluff. Its about Rules using examples. I have never played a game Table top or otherwise where a piece off table has any say. Monopoly! do you count the bank money? no coz technically it isnt there. YUGIOH? In Play rule is used alot. Out of play cards cannot be used unless brought back. Warhammer? if its not on the table it has no power until its!?!?!? ON THE TABLE!!!!

arkayne819 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Well, 40K for one.

Hive Commander and Telepathic Relay both clearly do function. If the only proviso is that the model is still alive then common sense says that in reserve counts. It's certainly not dead and there is no third state.

You should note that most people will disagree with you on that and so does the INAT.

What explanation can you offer for the different wording of the Tyrant and Lictor abilities if it isn't to make the Tyrant's ability work while in reserve?

Scott-S6 wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Not disagreeing with you in this case but what about abilities that don't make any mention of being on the board?

For example, Tyrant's +1 to reserve ability works while he is alive as opposed to the Lictors +1 to reserve ability that works while he is on the board.

By your interpretation the tyrant's ability wouldn't work since he's not in play?

NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Well, 40K for one.

Hive Commander and Telepathic Relay both clearly do function. If the only proviso is that the model is still alive then common sense says that in reserve counts. It's certainly not dead and there is no third state.

You should note that most people will disagree with you on that and so does the INAT.

What explanation can you offer for the different wording of the Tyrant and Lictor abilities if it isn't to make the Tyrant's ability work while in reserve?

Off the table? In your carry case? In another Battle? On the ship? Its all the same to me. Not on table=No Rules. UNLESS STATED SPECIFIALLY. (thats my vote) thats all ill say. Thats how i play, Thats how it'll stay. Even if im wrong? call it a house rule.

arkayne819 wrote:NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Those Space Marine Chapter Masters must suck pretty hard, then. Vulcan only works when he's on the table and alive? And that Koshorro Khan dude. That outflanking thing just does nothing.

I hope your Blood Angels don't use Astorath's improved Red Thirst rolls, or in fact any Red Thirst rolls. Or the Descent of Angels special rule.

forkbanger wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

Those Space Marine Chapter Masters must suck pretty hard, then. Vulcan only works when he's on the table and alive? And that Koshorro Khan dude. That outflanking thing just does nothing.

I hope your Blood Angels don't use Astorath's improved Red Thirst rolls, or in fact any Red Thirst rolls. Or the Descent of Angels special rule.

Now that is daft thinking lol. Ok i can see where my opinion has bitten me on the ass, as i have worded it for everything instead of being more specific, fair statement. If the unit has been paid for? then those rules apply definatly. thats common sense.

I guess there will always be a rule that isnt loophole proof anyway you turn. Want to Roll Off?

arkayne819 wrote:NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

arkayne819 wrote:Off the table? In your carry case? In another Battle? On the ship? Its all the same to me. Not on table=No Rules. UNLESS STATED SPECIFIALLY. (thats my vote) thats all ill say. Thats how i play, Thats how it'll stay. Even if im wrong? call it a house rule.

Dude how old are you? Seriously, work on your grammar, wording, spelling, and lay off the capslock. It's honestly very annoying talking to you.

That said, you really need to sit down with the rulebook and do some serious reading before posting in YMDC.

In reserve is not the same thing as "in your carrying case" or "in another battle." In reserve is in play, but not on the battlefield.

Forkbanger's got some pretty good points, too.

If my Hive Tyrant's ability can't be used when he's in reserve, then you can't use Descent of Angels, nor can you roll for Red Thirst. Oh, and Dante has to scatter when he deep strikes.

Sounds fair to me.

SaintHazard wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:NOT ON TABLE NOT IN PLAY (Thats my hard word), Its easy just use your common sense. How many games have you played where a model not technically on the battle field, Possibly in an other area or a ship in space for that matter can actually do stuff.

arkayne819 wrote:Off the table? In your carry case? In another Battle? On the ship? Its all the same to me. Not on table=No Rules. UNLESS STATED SPECIFIALLY. (thats my vote) thats all ill say. Thats how i play, Thats how it'll stay. Even if im wrong? call it a house rule.

Dude how old are you? Seriously, work on your grammar, wording, spelling, and lay off the capslock. It's honestly very annoying talking to you.

That said, you really need to sit down with the rulebook and do some serious reading before posting in YMDC.

In reserve is not the same thing as "in your carrying case" or "in another battle." In reserve is in play, but not on the battlefield.

Forkbanger's got some pretty good points, too.

If my Hive Tyrant's ability can't be used when he's in reserve, then you can't use Descent of Angels, nor can you roll for Red Thirst. Oh, and Dante has to scatter when he deep strikes.

Sounds fair to me.

Hey man,
1) Grammar? Get real mate thats the lamest insult of them all
2) How old am I? dude thats almost as bad as the first one.

and finally
3) I can see your points, I had totally forgotten half of those rules when i was talking about being out of play.

Now this is where things get interesting. Is it possible that? If a unit is cleared for Deep Strike (Roll passed for Deepstrike) that they are in Play from that moment til death takes them? And Characters abilities that state If this character is part of your Force and in reserve (but i never said in play) like Astaroths improved red thirst role, work outright even after he has died because they affected the whole army before the game started.?

arkayne819 wrote:

...and another one for the ignore tab.

Seriously-- the OP's question was answered already and your "examples" are wrong and irrelevant.

Learn the rules before trying to educate others on them.

As for grammar and age... I don't think he was being insulting so much as gently suggesting you take a moment to read over your posts so you don't sound like a "Best of Youtube Comments" in all of your posts.

First of all, I never insulted you. If you take offense at those things, then there's something very wrong with you. You speak like a young child, and your grammar is horrid. It makes it very hard to understand what you're trying to say, and your excessive use of capslock makes it feel like a small child is screeching his arguments at me. I was telling you to tone it down (which you did) and clean it up (which you did) and I'm happy.

That said, units held in reserve are simply not on the board. They can't perform any actions that can be performed while on the board, but any special rules that do not require them to be on the board still function. It's all in the rules.

I don't have my BRB on me, someone want to help me out, quote a page for me here?

kartofelkopf wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:

...and another one for the ignore tab.

Seriously-- the OP's question was answered already and your "examples" are wrong and irrelevant.

Learn the rules before trying to educate others on them.

As for grammar and age... I don't think he was being insulting so much as gently suggesting you take a moment to read over your posts so you don't sound like a "Best of Youtube Comments" in all of your posts.

Dude take your five cents and go away.

I feel my points have been clear and Im still not convinced that im wrong.
If you guys feel im trying to bash you's with rules then ill shut up.
But I thought this was a forum where we ccould discuss rules even have a good argument without things getting all immature.
Im not here for a fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:First of all, I never insulted you. If you take offense at those things, then there's something very wrong with you. You speak like a young child, and your grammar is horrid. It makes it very hard to understand what you're trying to say, and your excessive use of capslock makes it feel like a small child is screeching his arguments at me. I was telling you to tone it down (which you did) and clean it up (which you did) and I'm happy.

That said, units held in reserve are simply not on the board. They can't perform any actions that can be performed while on the board, but any special rules that do not require them to be on the board still function. It's all in the rules.

I don't have my BRB on me, someone want to help me out, quote a page for me here?

Cool as. My bad for getting things wrong.

Effects i feel are ones useable from reserve are rules that have an effect before the game has started (Grimnars ability to have Wolfguard as troops for example). Not all rules work, but then as i will take back what i said earlier some rules certainly do.

There is a sub-forum for what you are suggesting.

Thanks for all the thoughtful input.
As a 'Nid player, I agree that "common sense" tells us that it should not work.
But common sense and 40k seem to rarely go hand in hand.

Does anyone have a page reference in the BRB, an FAQ, or INAT reference to prove a point in either direction?

Are you asking about the tervigon or the tyrant?

The tyrant's ability works while his is alive. Being held in reserve doesn't make him not alive. So it works. Same as Astropaths. Both of these are mentioned in the INAT.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:That said, units held in reserve are simply not on the board. They can't perform any actions that can be performed while on the board, but any special rules that do not require them to be on the board still function. It's all in the rules.

I don't have my BRB on me, someone want to help me out, quote a page for me here?

There isn't a good quote referencing this. Units in reserve are in your army. Units in reserve that do not arrive before the end of the game count as destroyed. So, they're in your army and they're not destroyed. I'd say that would be described as "alive".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

arkayne819 wrote:Effects i feel are ones useable from reserve are rules that have an effect before the game has started (Grimnars ability to have Wolfguard as troops for example). Not all rules work, but then as i will take back what i said earlier some rules certainly do.

Grimnar's ability is actually working before the game even starts - it works during army list construction. Proof positive that models can have functioning abilities even if not on the table (can't get more out of play than before the game starts!).

40K is littered with special rules that work from reserve or even before the game starts.

I'll repeat this question which you glossed over: What explanation can you offer for the different wording of the Tyrant and Lictor abilities if it isn't to make the Tyrant's ability work while in reserve?

Look at it this way- units that aren't on the table don't get a movement phase.

No-one's arguing about the Tervigon, that was done but Arkayne stirred it up by saying that no abilities worked while the model was in reserve (very clearly not the case)