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Hey everyone,
It occurred to me while taking a look at the CSM codex the other day that there are units in most if not all codex's that are just plain worthless compared to other units, either in rules or points (or both in most cases). Now I was thinking we should suggest these units and make a few 'modifications' to the units. These shouldn't be massive fanboy "OMFG MY KROOT SHOULD HAVE TOUGHNESS 8!!!" I'm talking about small changes just so some units actually become competitive enough to compete with other units in the codex.
I'll start then with the Thousand Sons. They are defiantly over costed for what they do and an immediate way to help there 'uncompetitiveness' would be slightly lower the cost of the sorcerer to 50 pts, and then allow the Rubric marines to ignore cover as well as the AP3 bolters. This would make them actually useful against horde armies that hide behind forests without really even changing the point cost.

I agree entirely. Especially from an Eldar perspective. Case in point. Guardians. Apart from their heavy weapon, their range is 12 inches. So basically, to shoot, you have to be within range to be assaulted in your opponents turn. That seems pretty useless to me. Especially seeing as they cost approximately twice the price of, say, a guardsman.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:
I'll start then with the Thousand Sons. They are defiantly over costed for what they do and an immediate way to help there 'uncompetitiveness' would be slightly lower the cost of the sorcerer to 50 pts, and then allow the Rubric marines to ignore cover as well as the AP3 bolters. This would make them actually useful against horde armies that hide behind forests without really even changing the point cost.

Perhaps they may cost too many points, but every unit should not be good against every type of enemy. If you want to make a non-competitive unit competitive, think about how to make it synergize with the rest of your list. Thousand sons are awesome amongst a great deal of enemy types. Think about what Thousand Sons are good against. Sisters, MEQ infantry, (Thats Necrons, Sisters, SW, BA, SM, BT, DA, and other Chaos Space Marines) plus they all have invul saves. They're fine for what they're meant to do. Take something else to deal with hordes.

There are a few units that I find to be wholly non-competitive vs any enemy for various reasons. A prime example to me would be SM Devastators - once you calculate in the points cost of their weapons, they simply have no reason to ever have gotten picked over the other things in their force chart. Flash Gits also come to mind prominently.

I would hazard that most things that are not 'competitive' just have pricing issues.

When I look at the Possessed, lessers, and spawn (the traditional bench warmers) they are functional (if a bit narrow in application).

Their only fault is being expensive for what you get.

Flash Gitz...
If they had 36" range and something like Twin-Linked they might fill a niche in the ork codex... might...

Fully upgraded its 45 points a model for something that has random AP, Get's Hot, the same number of shots as a Shoota and only 6" more then the Shoota...

1k Sons are not overcosted for what they do in my opinion, they're just a bit misunderstood.

See, their only real disadvantage is their movement.

Give'em a Rhino, and you've got a spectacular MEq-killer - just about everything else that can effectively take down MEqs in the CSM codex Gets Hot!, is limited to a few models per unit, or has to get into CC to do it.

That said, I'll put forward Vespid Stingwings.

Reduce their cost by a few points, increase their squad size, and make them Troops, and they'd be a decent CC unit. They do have high initiative, which is nice, but they take up a valuable Fast Attack slot that should go instead to Piranhas or Pathfinders. They do have a pretty nice shooting attack, and the 12" range is no big deal since the next thing you should be doing is rushing them into CC, but they're a bit too expensive and are something of a niche unit.

Make them Troops and increase squad size and they'd be excellent blockers for your Fire Warriors.

Oh, and they need plastic models.

Stormboyz: Need 'eavy armour and a max squad size of 30, an additional point on Strength would be good too, but not completely making the unit into flying Nobz.

Looted Wagons: Make them Squadron capable

Eyclonus wrote:Stormboyz: Need 'eavy armour and a max squad size of 30, an additional point on Strength would be good too, but not completely making the unit into flying Nobz.

Except that then nobody would ever take Slugga Boyz, because you'd have a mob of 30 jump infantry with 4 attacks on the charge whose only drawback is that there's a chance that one model might die each turn.

Trukks would also be obsolete.

Eyclonus wrote:Looted Wagons: Make them Squadron capable

Why? They're too expensive as it is, why would I ever take more than one of them as a single choice?

Well I would say discount them, but as I don't have the dex with me atm I can't set a new cost that is balanced. Although with stormboyz I'd recost them 18pts for that. Also they're not scoring so you still need boyz.

Eyclonus wrote:Well I would say discount them, but as I don't have the dex with me atm I can't set a new cost that is balanced. Although with stormboyz I'd recost them 18pts for that. Also they're not scoring so you still need boyz.

That's why I specifically said slugga boyz. Everyone would take Grotz and Shoota Boyz to hold objectives, but Slugga Boyz in Trukks or Wagons would be obsolete, and everyone would take twenty thousand Stormboyz.

Anyway, I like being able to put Deffkoptaz in my FA slots, I don't want to have to worry that Stormboyz might be a better choice.

What about giving Scouts to Kommandos, I don't see any reason why not.

I would definitely agree that ultimately, nearly every "non-competitive" unit can be fixed simply by adjusting the points cost. What would be interesting to debate, I think, are what units are inherently broken regardless of point value? There must be some - units that you'd never field even for nearly free.

Possessed: Pick one power each turn and can't pick the same power twice in a row. Boom useful.

Ouze wrote:I would definitely agree that ultimately, nearly every "non-competitive" unit can be fixed simply by adjusting the points cost. What would be interesting to debate, I think, are what units are inherently broken regardless of point value? There must be some - units that you'd never field even for nearly free.

Legion of the dammed squad-
I wouldn't even know where to begin fixing this unit. Way overcosted, no additional options outside a Tac squad and did I mention they MUST deepstrike.

Ork flash gitz, make them BS 3. Not a huge change but dear lord would it make them more useful.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Ork flash gitz, make them BS 3. Not a huge change but dear lord would it make them more useful.

5 Flash Gitz with More Dakka fire 2 shots each for a total of 10 shots. 10 shots at BS2 gets, on average, 3 hits. 10 shots at BS3 gets, on average, 5 hits.

...two extra hits makes them more useful? I don't think so.

TL- the weapons, and make the basic Snazz Gun Assault 2, More dakka makes it 2+D3

Flash Gits need to be Assault 2 default, and Moar Dakka either gives A3 or Twin Linked. Add in six inches of range and we've got something.

Eyclonus wrote:TL- the weapons, and make the basic Snazz Gun Assault 2, More dakka makes it 2+D3

This right here is both more realistic fluff-wise and would make them more useful.

On the looted wagon.
The orks have a light and fast transport, The Trukk. They have a large durable but slower transport, the Battle Wagon. What they do not have is a medium armor Shooty transport vehicle like a Chimera.

I think the looted wagon armor should be 12 11 10 and start with 12 transport capacity and a gretchin gunner for BS3. With this you can get one of the Big Guns (Kanon, lobba, or Zap) and keep the 12 transport capactiy. You can take the Boom Gun option and lose all the transport capacity. Lastly, there should be a Looted Gattla Gun option that is 24" range with d6 shots at S7 AP4 maybe, but the transport capacity becomes 6. Then any of the "shooty" ork squads can take one as a dedicated transport, ie Lootas, Flash Gitz, or Tank Bustas. The biggest problem with them now it that they are competing with Battle wagons for the Heavy Support Slot.

I do not know how many points for all of this but between the cost of a trukk and a Battlewagon

SaintHazard wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Ork flash gitz, make them BS 3. Not a huge change but dear lord would it make them more useful.

5 Flash Gitz with More Dakka fire 2 shots each for a total of 10 shots. 10 shots at BS2 gets, on average, 3 hits. 10 shots at BS3 gets, on average, 5 hits.

...two extra hits makes them more useful? I don't think so.

How is it not more useful if there is only a benefit to the change? Two hits is still two more hits than they got before and over the course of a 5 round game that's 10 more potential hits that you otherwise would not have had.

Anyway, I'll throw in the typical necron reference of giving flayed ones rending and making them a troop choice. Or at least making it so the disruption fields you can take maybe add rending as well as the glancing benefit (possible increase in point cost).

Kevin949 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Ork flash gitz, make them BS 3. Not a huge change but dear lord would it make them more useful.

5 Flash Gitz with More Dakka fire 2 shots each for a total of 10 shots. 10 shots at BS2 gets, on average, 3 hits. 10 shots at BS3 gets, on average, 5 hits.

...two extra hits makes them more useful? I don't think so.

How is it not more useful if there is only a benefit to the change? Two hits is still two more hits than they got before and over the course of a 5 round game that's 10 more potential hits that you otherwise would not have had.

Alright, nitpicker. Let me rephrase.

Adding two hits does not make them useful enough to be fielded in a heavy support slot.

There. Happy?

svendrex wrote:On the looted wagon.
The orks have a light and fast transport, The Trukk. They have a large durable but slower transport, the Battle Wagon. What they do not have is a medium armor Shooty transport vehicle like a Chimera.

I think the looted wagon armor should be 12 11 10 and start with 12 transport capacity and a gretchin gunner for BS3. With this you can get one of the Big Guns (Kanon, lobba, or Zap) and keep the 12 transport capactiy. You can take the Boom Gun option and lose all the transport capacity. Lastly, there should be a Looted Gattla Gun option that is 24" range with d6 shots at S7 AP4 maybe, but the transport capacity becomes 6. Then any of the "shooty" ork squads can take one as a dedicated transport, ie Lootas, Flash Gitz, or Tank Bustas. The biggest problem with them now it that they are competing with Battle wagons for the Heavy Support Slot.

I do not know how many points for all of this but between the cost of a trukk and a Battlewagon

This is a great example of what I was saying earlier. If the looted wagon were free, I would not field it: same price as a trukk, no advantages, big disadvantage. If you want the Boomgun, you have to pay for it, at which point no reason to ever take it as a battlewagon can take the same role and do it more ably.

A lot of the issues with the current chaos book can easily be fixed with a small cost adjustment/rules tweak which is why I am currently writing my own add on rule set for Chaos. Here's some of my feedback on what gimped units could be easily fixed.

Possessed: Removal of scouts and replace it with another killy ability such as poisoned attack. Scouts essentially confuses the role of possessed, which is as a specialist assault unit and the daemonic abilities are supposed to augment the possessed's capabilities higher than a standard marine. Perhaps make the daemonic abilities more forgiving by making it change every turn.

Spawn: Replace mindless with rage.

Thousand Sons: Removal of force weapon and discount cost of aspiring sorcerer appropriately. I've always thought the force weapon over inflated their cost and confused their role as a durable ranged unit.

Dreadnaught: Adjust crazed by either removing it, making it optional or increase the current flexibility of fire frenzy by making it fire at the closest enemy unit first (as opposed to the current closet unit).

Fabius Bile: Change rod of torment to a power weapon with a 4+ poisoned attack. Change the Chirurgeon to provide a 4++ save (instead of +2A, FNP and no inv save). Allow Fabius to enhance all non cultist marines except terminators (CSM, chosen, bikers, raptors and havocs), essentially allowing players to run an all enhanced warriors army.

Huron Blackheart: While not a gimped unit, he certainly doesn’t offer as much as an SM Captain or Wolf lord. I would improve Huron’s usefulness by making him auto pass his psyhic test (at least this way his pimp familiar now actually does something other than making him a 2 bit psyker).

Non Unit Changes
• Make all icons and not just IOCG offer the moral test re-roll
• Fix the bloodfeeder by making it offer +1d6A + to hit re-rolls instead of +2d6A + suicide.

Ogryns, maybe?

I've heard a lot of bad things about them, so I've never taken the chance to field them.

Oh, and Rough Riders.

Moving to Proposed Rules...

Cambak wrote:Ogryns, maybe?

I've heard a lot of bad things about them, so I've never taken the chance to field them.

Oh, and Rough Riders.

Who cares? I am working on an army entirely of RR, and will get my butt kicked every time.
Doesn't matter. I field 60 calvary models for under 750 points, and have a grand old charge? I win by C(ool)-points.

Che-Vito wrote:

Cambak wrote:Ogryns, maybe?

I've heard a lot of bad things about them, so I've never taken the chance to field them.

Oh, and Rough Riders.

Who cares? I am working on an army entirely of RR, and will get my butt kicked every time.
Doesn't matter. I field 60 calvary models for under 750 points, and have a grand old charge? I win by C(ool)-points.

That's the spirit I like to see
I have fielded (more than once) an army heavy with Conscripts just to see what would happen

Che-Vito wrote:

Cambak wrote:Ogryns, maybe?

I've heard a lot of bad things about them, so I've never taken the chance to field them.

Oh, and Rough Riders.

Who cares? I am working on an army entirely of RR, and will get my butt kicked every time.
Doesn't matter. I field 60 calvary models for under 750 points, and have a grand old charge? I win by C(ool)-points.

I'm actually curious as to how you manage this. Is there something I missed in the IG codex that allows you to take Rough Riders as Troops, or are you just ignoring the FoC with this one?