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Mephiston 250

Lib dread, wings, shield 175
Drop pod, deathwind missile launcher 55

Lib dread, wings, shield 175

Baal predator, TL AC, HB sponsons, searchlight 146

Baal predator, TL AC, HB sponsons, searchlight 146

Baal predator, TL AC, HB sponsons, searchlight 146

Predator, AC, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, AC, lascannon sponsons 135

Predator, AC, lascannon sponsons 135

Assault squad, flamer, remove packs 105
Razorback, TL HF, searchlight 21

Assault squad, flamer, remove packs 105
Razorback, TL HF, searchlight 21

= 1750

Baals take midfield on first turn with smoke up. Lib dreads deploy and move forward to cover baals from behind with shield, autolas preds hang back. Razors are either flaming stuff or hanging back, depending on opposition and game type, keep them well back behind the autolas in objective games, they're your only troops. Meph skulks around behind baals. Drop the pod to block your enemy, preferably not near meltatroops or CC tank killers, to force him to kill it with shooting (instead of your preds), go around it or ignore it, then it can drop str 5 blasts on stuff. Deathwind is there to force even more target priority issues for your enemy. Searchlights are there because I had 5pts left over, in dawn of war you can deploy both razors empty and have them tag enemy vehicles for your autolas', and walk the assault squads on from reserve to take the objectives nearest to your table edge.

Comments appreciated. =)

Im not sure why you'd give your dread both wings and pod, it seems like a waste to me. Also, deathwind launchers are never worth it.

The biggest weekness to this list is that you have exactl 10 scoring units...Its very unlikely that your going to win an objective game.

Catyrpelius wrote:10 scoring units...Its very unlikely that your going to win an objective game.

x2

Droppod is there because I had 60pts left and nothing useful to buy with it without dropping something. Cant get more vehicles, and dont want to buy upgrades for the assault squads, melta for example, because they're my only troops and in objective games they'll be in reserve most of the game, so I don't want to make them too expensive, but having 2 templates still keeps them as a threat in KP missions, as opposed to 5 sniper scouts or 5 assault marines in rhino with no upgrades, as they're just dead weights in KP missions.

Droppod adds in another high AV vehicle, with the added plus that you can drop it right in front of the enemy to block his movement. It has the deathwind to make it that much more annoying, as the enemy really does usually have to deal with it or it drops str 5 pie plates on their infantry for the whole game. Doesn't sound like much, but believe me it does add up.

Umm... I have 2 scoring units, the assault squads, who will in objective games reserve and either drive or walk on (if the enemy has minimal long ranged shooting I can footslog the squads and use the razors to flame stuff) The army does contain 14KP, which can be a problem, but usually the vehicles just take immobilised/weapon destroyed results, and then the enemy has to waste more of his shooting to kill it dead instead of damaging the fully operational preds.

I wouldn't classify a droppod as a high AV vehicle, its imoblised when it lands, so close combat attacks and grenades will autohit against them. They are alot easier to kill then you think.

AS for your scoring units. REserving things is all well and great, but you cant just decide to keep them in reserve the whole game until the end, they come in when the roll says they come in, which 1/3rd of the time will be on the second turn. If you decide that 10 marines is enough scoring units, I wish you the best...

10 Marines and a bunch of Melta-bait...with no melta itself.

You'll wanna buy a new army the first Vulkan list you bump into. If it wasnt for Mephiston, Nidzilla lists would LOVE this....owaitaminute, throw 30 gaunts at Meph...its fun again!

Honestly, this list isnt very good. 6 Preds is the first thing people see after looking at the BA list, keep looking.

Catyrpelius wrote:I wouldn't classify a droppod as a high AV vehicle, its imoblised when it lands, so close combat attacks and grenades will autohit against them. They are alot easier to kill then you think.

AS for your scoring units. REserving things is all well and great, but you cant just decide to keep them in reserve the whole game until the end, they come in when the roll says they come in, which 1/3rd of the time will be on the second turn. If you decide that 10 marines is enough scoring units, I wish you the best...

Id say 12 is high in that str 6 cant pen it, meaning youve got to use your autocannons/lascannon/lances or equivalent. Yes that first pen is likely to destroy it, but then that one unit wasted their shooting on a 55pt immobilised box. You dont drop it near meltatroops, and if possible you drop it nearby meph or the lib dreads, so that if the enemy wants to get out of transports to TRY and destroy it with kraks (only meltabombs will reliably smash it) then they're gonna get tied up by the dreads or eaten by mephiston. Its not an optimal choice, I'm aware of that, however it's IMO the best I can do with the 60pts left over.

Reserves come in half of the time on rule 2. But they'll come in behind my autolas', giving them 3+ cover, and you can only reach them with your 48" range weapons, which if your firing at my razors means your leaving my preds and dreads unharmed, and only 1/3 of the shots will get through, coupled with a 1/3 chance to destroy, means you've got a 1/6 chance o destroy them, assuming you've penetrated and hit first. On average you'll need 9 lascannon (or other str 9 hits) to destroy it, or 12 str 8 hits. Do you really want to use all that on a razor? And assuming you destroy it you wont be able to see the squad from behind he preds clogging up the field.

Ok, Deadshane angered me, so here is what I'd do to run this list competivaly and still keep the 6 predator theme.

HQ:
Librarian with a Jump Pack, 125 pts

Elites:
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts

Troops:
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts

Fast Attack:
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts

Heavy Support:
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts

This list needs to shed 15 points, but you can do that by takeing off the HB sponsons on one of the Baal's I think, I dont have the codex with me at work. This is a much more solid list, that gives you much more tactical flexibility.


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A glancing hit can easily destory drop pod, its already imoblised so the first weapon destroyed result or imoblised result, knocks off its only weapon, the second wrecks the pod. Deathwind launches are not as good as you think they are...

Razorbacks are not effective cover, especially when your planning on useing Razorbacks with a flamer to cover units in your back field, it just doesnt make sense. They are also fairly easy to destroy. Just remember, predators only have an AV of 13 on the front, once something get around that front armor, consider the vehicle gone.

Deadshane1 wrote:10 Marines and a bunch of Melta-bait...with no melta itself.

You'll wanna buy a new army the first Vulkan list you bump into. If it wasnt for Mephiston, Nidzilla lists would LOVE this....owaitaminute, throw 30 gaunts at Meph...its fun again!

Honestly, this list isnt very good. 6 Preds is the first thing people see after looking at the BA list, keep looking.

Ok then, clearly this is about as helpful a comment as I'll get. Tell me what I need those meltas for? Only thing that comes to mind is raiders. 6str 10 attacks from one dude not enough to kill a single raider? Really? Meltasquads are generally suicide squads, I'd rather not kill my only troops, thanks. Oh, nidzilla loves meph and lascannons+assault cannons by the gakload? New to me. Especially when they cant CATCH me to kill me in CC. Ok tyrannofexes. Yay. They might do something. Tell me, how do your bike meltas get into meltarange of my tanks when I'm sitting 24" away with the baals and more with the autolas'? They can't do it in 1 turn, meaning they're firing at front 13 with str 8. Good luck. Ok multimeltas will do something if they get past the 5+ cover. Then said bike squads get assaulted by the lib dreads and meph. Oh dear. What else did you have that was meant to scare me?

You're assuming that I looked at the codex and thought "hey BA can take 6 preds! That would PWN!" And then just spammed them and threw some random stuff together. You're wrong. I've played BA. I've won with BA. I know BA. If your gonna say someone's list sucks then at least have the decency to post up how you would improve it, or failing that how you would beat it. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

You do see that Meph has no invulnerable save right? Its his biggest weakness. He is a tough unit, and I realize that he cant be onshot killed but every AP 3 or better hit is going to wound him, as is rending. Its why most people consider him overpriced. If he had an invulernable save, say either a shield or a Iron Halo, he would be a much better unit. He is also one model, and he can be easily taken out with volume of attacks, that is what Deadshane is trying to say I think.

In support of Deadshane, there are two things that people generally think of when they see the new BA codex. The first is a whole bunch of Deathsquads, the second is 6 Predators. Both have gone pretty much unused because they are very easy to defend against.

Melee attacks don't work well against vehicles, since when you get close enough to assault they can just move 12" (and since its a LR still fire a weapon) to make you hit on 6s. 6 attacks will average one hit, meaning you don't have a good chance of destroying it in one round. Meanwhile you are not locked in combat so your opponent is free to fire away at the assaulting unit.

Catyrpelius wrote:Ok, Deadshane angered me, so here is what I'd do to run this list competivaly and still keep the 6 predator theme.

HQ:
Librarian with a Jump Pack, 125 pts

Elites:
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts
Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack, 75 pts

Troops:
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts
10 Man Assult Squad, Melta Gun, 200 pts

Fast Attack:
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts
Baal Predator, TL AC, HB Sponsons, 145 pts

Heavy Support:
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts
Predator, AC, LC Sponsons , 135 pts

This list needs to shed 15 points, but you can do that by takeing off the HB sponsons on one of the Baal's I think, I dont have the codex with me at work. This is a much more solid list, that gives you much more tactical flexibility.


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A glancing hit can easily destory drop pod, its already imoblised so the first weapon destroyed result or imoblised result, knocks off its only weapon, the second wrecks the pod. Deathwind launches are not as good as you think they are...

Razorbacks are not effective cover, especially when your planning on useing Razorbacks with a flamer to cover units in your back field, it just doesnt make sense. They are also fairly easy to destroy. Just remember, predators only have an AV of 13 on the front, once something get around that front armor, consider the vehicle gone.

The razors have flamers so that in KP missions they can do something, a TL HB is laughable, especially as you get the HF for free. The preds are cover for the razors. Youre right about the preds, if you can get through the AV13 they will die, but youll have to pen 3 times on average to destroy them (50/50 with ap1).

The reason the dreads are there are twofold, firstly, they increase AV13 saturation, they shield the preds and they tie stuff up. The list has NOTHING on foot, so all of the enemy's small arms will be useless.

The deathwind isn't a game winner, but it does kill stuff. The droppod is there to fill up spare points and add another vehicle.

You're list looks ok, it's a good list, not denying that, but it has both infantry and tanks, giving all of the enemy's weapons something to shoot at. Still, to each his own I suppose.


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Dracos wrote:Melee attacks don't work well against vehicles, since when you get close enough to assault they can just move 12" (and since its a LR still fire a weapon) to make you hit on 6s. 6 attacks will average one hit, meaning you don't have a good chance of destroying it in one round. Meanwhile you are not locked in combat so your opponent is free to fire away at the assaulting unit.

If his land raider is moving 12" its firing 1 TL lasc (at best) anything else will do nothing (crusader, redeemer) and I can ignore it.

Not everyones infantry are Space Marines, I think thats what your missing here. People play other factions. just because your list is mostly involnerable from bolter firer thats not true for every army out there. Tau infantry can technicaly kill your transports, hidden power fists in Ork mobs, Lances in Eldar, melta spam in Imperial Guard. Optomizing a list to counter one army is not the way to go.

If your covering Razorbacks with predators, that meens that your razorbacks are going to be far away from the enemy, outside of flamer range. Give them a Las/TL-PG or leave them out.

If I remeber correctly the deathwind is AP6 which meens that pretty much everything in the game gets to take an armor save against it, it also only has a 12 inch range...

Catyrpelius wrote:You do see that Meph has no invulnerable save right? Its his biggest weakness. He is a tough unit, and I realize that he cant be onshot killed but every AP 3 or better hit is going to wound him, as is rending. Its why most people consider him overpriced. If he had an invulernable save, say either a shield or a Iron Halo, he would be a much better unit. He is also one model, and he can be easily taken out with volume of attacks, that is what Deadshane is trying to say I think.

In support of Deadshane, there are two things that people generally think of when they see the new BA codex. The first is a whole bunch of Deathsquads, the second is 6 Predators. Both have gone pretty much unused because they are very easy to defend against.

Believe me, I know meph. You, on the other hand, dont really seem to. His save is 2+, he's toughness 6, so good luck torrenting him with gaunts or equivalent. Yes he is 1 model, which is great. Stick him behind anything and whaddya know, you can't see him!

Single death company are a joke, spam DC even more so. 6 predators played right however, is not. I believe I have said several times that I do play BA, and that this is not a random list I threw together. What kind of BA list do you want me to post? All jumppack? Razorspam?

OP - Your list is fine. You have 3 fast moving assault units (2 dreads and Meph.) If there is anything on the board that Meph might worry about, then you can combo charge it with Meph and a Dread.

I like the idea of one dread in a pod. It gives you the opportunity to spread the dread threat range a little farther into your opponent. You can safely drop the Pod+Dread away from easy melta counterattack and still be in range for a Wings+assault into the enemy. I like that tactic.

Yes it is hard to kill a razorback that is hiding behind 6 Predators. Your 2 scoring units in those Razorbacks are good enough to win objective games. You won't win big, but you have the material to win those games 1-0 every time. It is not easy to remove your troops when you don't let the enemy get near them or shoot them.

I would only change the Heavy Flamer to a Heavy bolter on those Razorbacks. You are going to be hiding them in most games and the 36" range Heavy Bolters give you the opportunity to peak out and snipe at units from a safe distance. It increases the number of units that can target the enemy which is good and I can give them a better job, hunting enemy Land Speeders. Speeders are cheap enough that they are relatively common and it would be a waste to fire a Predator, with all it's weapons, at a 70pt speeder. However those 70pt speeders are flying around with multi-meltas so they are a threat to your armor. Dedicate the razorbacks as speeder killers and you can save your predator shots for something else.


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Jabbdo wrote:[Single death company are a joke,

Hmmm... 9 Death company, 4 power weapons, 1 power fist, chaplain in a Land Raider might be one of the best assault units in the game right now. Almost nothing short of a Venerable dreadnought could stand up to an assault from this unit (and the Ven Dread only because it's armor 12 and makes you reroll the damage table). Do the math, it's pretty good.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not everyones infantry are Space Marines, I think thats what your missing here. People play other factions. just because your list is mostly involnerable from bolter firer thats not true for every army out there. Tau infantry can technicaly kill your transports, hidden power fists in Ork mobs, Lances in Eldar, melta spam in Imperial Guard. Optomizing a list to counter one army is not the way to go.

If your covering Razorbacks with predators, that meens that your razorbacks are going to be far away from the enemy, outside of flamer range. Give them a Las/TL-PG or leave them out.

If I remeber correctly the deathwind is AP6 which meens that pretty much everything in the game gets to take an armor save against it, it also only has a 12 inch range...

The deathwind is AP-, but why take a 6+ armor when you have 4+ cover? As I have said THE DROPPOD IS THERE AS A POINT FILLER

Getting tired of repeating myself, the TL HF's are there because they are FREE. Lasplas costs POINTS. POINTS=MODELS. To get more POINTS for the Lasplas I'd have to drop MODELS. Not being able to fire 2 templates per turn wont lose me the game.

Don't quite see what you're getting at here, how exactly is the army optimised against marines? Tau infantry are range 30" with str 5 weapons, ok. My preds are av13. You can do it with an eight sided dice!!! Power fists require the wielder to be in combat, getting into combat with my preds requires leaving cover, leaving cover=death. Lances are lascannons against preds, and I think we've covered lascannons. Meltas require you to get within 6" to kill me, which you cant do in 1 turn when I'm camping at 24". Only deep striking squads can, and they will kill tanks yes, but remember there's always the 5+ lifeline cover save, and those deepstrikers will be getting to know Mephiston next turn.

It's your army, play it the way you want. Dont come into an area, post your list ask for comments and then defend your choices to your last dieing breath. If your not going to change anything or follow any of the really helpful advice that has been posted hear, then why bother posting your list. It sounds like the only advice your looking to get is; OMG your list is the best ever I'm going to copy it right now! Anyway, I'm done. Later

Jabbdo wrote:If his land raider is moving 12" its firing 1 TL lasc (at best) anything else will do nothing (crusader, redeemer) and I can ignore it.

I don't understand what you are meaning. Why can't the crusader or redeemer fire its primary weapon? What do you mean 1 TL lascannon at best? The "at best" part is a weird way to rationalize ignoring what the vehicle is doing. But sure, count on your 1 model with S10 CC attacks to destroy a LR. I'm sure your non-incompetent opponents will love you for it.

DarthDiggler wrote:OP - Your list is fine. You have 3 fast moving assault units (2 dreads and Meph.) If there is anything on the board that Meph might worry about, then you can combo charge it with Meph and a Dread.

I like the idea of one dread in a pod. It gives you the opportunity to spread the dread threat range a little farther into your opponent. You can safely drop the Pod+Dread away from easy melta counterattack and still be in range for a Wings+assault into the enemy. I like that tactic.

Yes it is hard to kill a razorback that is hiding behind 6 Predators. Your 2 scoring units in those Razorbacks are good enough to win objective games. You won't win big, but you have the material to win those games 1-0 every time. It is not easy to remove your troops when you don't let the enemy get near them or shoot them.

I would only change the Heavy Flamer to a Heavy bolter on those Razorbacks. You are going to be hiding them in most games and the 36" range Heavy Bolters give you the opportunity to peak out and snipe at units from a safe distance. It increases the number of units that can target the enemy which is good and I can give them a better job, hunting enemy Land Speeders. Speeders are cheap enough that they are relatively common and it would be a waste to fire a Predator, with all it's weapons, at a 70pt speeder. However those 70pt speeders are flying around with multi-meltas so they are a threat to your armor. Dedicate the razorbacks as speeder killers and you can save your predator shots for something else.


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Jabbdo wrote:[Single death company are a joke,

Hmmm... 9 Death company, 4 power weapons, 1 power fist, chaplain in a Land Raider might be one of the best assault units in the game right now. Almost nothing short of a Venerable dreadnought could stand up to an assault from this unit (and the Ven Dread only because it's armor 12 and makes you reroll the damage table). Do the math, it's pretty good.

Thanks for you comment. Ill think about the razor comment, maybe find some way to squeeze in an AC/lasplas on them if possible.

DC are good, no denying it. On the charge from a LR with a chaplain DC can be THE BEST assault squad in the game. What happens then? The enemy squad dies, and the DC are standing around pissing in the wind, or maybe consol into cover. Then they run into the nearest enemy unit, no matter what it is. Simply put, rage rapes them. They are fun, no doubt, and destructive, but they're a fire-and-forget missile, they pretty much play themselves as soon as you disembark them. I was a bit harsh with that one line, they're not a joke, but they're not brilliant either. Only way I see them working is in transports, so, as you said, you can park right next to the unit you want to charge so even rage cant make them screw it up. Maybe astorath and multiple small units of them in razors?


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Dracos wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:If his land raider is moving 12" its firing 1 TL lasc (at best) anything else will do nothing (crusader, redeemer) and I can ignore it.

I don't understand what you are meaning. Why can't the crusader or redeemer fire its primary weapon? What do you mean 1 TL lascannon at best? The "at best" part is a weird way to rationalize ignoring what the vehicle is doing. But sure, count on your 1 model with S10 CC attacks to destroy a LR. I'm sure your non-incompetent opponents will love you for it.

Ok, the crusader/redeemer can fire its main weapon, but it will do nothing against av13. Only the TL AC can. The worst that a LR can do is fire a single TL lasc while moving 12", which MIGHT pen a pred. So I can safely ignore it. And if it's moving 12" a turn to avoid getting killed by Meph, it's doing very little.

14 str 10 attacks will wreck a LR moving less than 12", no questions asked.

No you are right. The DC is a fire and forget missile weapon. The DC player would hope they would only need one missile to fire per game. :-)

You don't necessarily need to upgrade the razorbacks, just change the free heavy flamer to a free heavy bolter. I'm not talking about making them perfect speeder killers, just make them a unit that CAN kill a speeder or even threaten 5-man Loota squads across the board. Both of those types of units usually aren't worth all the firepower a Predator will dish out.

Catyrpelius wrote:It's your army, play it the way you want. Dont come into an area, post your list ask for comments and then defend your choices to your last dieing breath. If your not going to change anything or follow any of the really helpful advice that has been posted hear, then why bother posting your list. It sounds like the only advice your looking to get is; OMG your list is the best ever I'm going to copy it right now! Anyway, I'm done. Later

I was hoping for HELPFUL comments, of which I have received 1 (thank you Darth diggler). On the other hand I have also received bitching about my droppod, bitching about my razors, and just general white noise. I've had to repeat my use of the razors several times, despite sharing my plan for their use in my original post. No, I was not hoping for people to praise my superior army building skill and copy my list. Of course I'll defend my choices, especially if the advice I am receiving is utter crap. Jeez, do you wan't me to just say "Ok your list is the best, it has 30 basic jumppacking marines who will be killed by any dedicated CC unit, I'm gonna change my list to yours right away!"

If you're going to get angry when you post a list and someone tells you that it sucks, here's a hint....

DONT BOTHER POSTING ONE!

Noone is going to be impressed with anybody's list.

People will post what is wrong.

If you cannot handle that, you may want to reevaluate your reasons for posting.


There's no reason for you to get angry. None whatsoever. My previous post wasnt a reason for you to get angry, but you're fuming because peeps dont like your noobish 6 pred idea.

Take a valium dood.

Deadshane1 wrote:If you're going to get angry when you post a list and someone tells you that it sucks, here's a hint....

DONT BOTHER POSTING ONE!

Noone is going to be impressed with anybody's list.

People will post what is wrong.

If you cannot handle that, you may want to reevaluate your reasons for posting.


There's no reason for you to get angry. None whatsoever. My previous post wasnt a reason for you to get angry, but you're fuming because peeps dont like your noobish 6 pred idea.

Take a valium dood.

Jesus Christ! I don't get angry if somebody doesn't like my list, that's fine, everyone has their own playstyle and preferences, and I'm not gonna force my list onto people. I just find it fairly amusing and not just a little bit pathetic that you seem dead set on insulting my list, calling me a n00b, and just generally telling me I suck, and yet not actually backing up your comments with any sort of intellectual advice. If you think my list sucks, fine, I don't really care if you don't like it, because I'm gonna be playing it, not you. But going around just saying "lol 6 BA preds n00b lol" will not convince anyone. Do you even play BA? It really doesn't look like it. It looks like you don't know what you are talking about, and just enjoy insulting peoples lists for fun. You have clearly posted what you THINK is wrong with the list, without backing it up with any sort of advice or even explaining why you think it is wrong. Helpful. IMO the list is well balanced, and will do fine against any balanced armies that it will come up against (of course armies optimised to kill it WILL kill it, for example ravenwing meltaspam, however said ravenwing force would get absolutely raped the first army with basically any amount of CC troops they face).

Ok then, if my list sucks so bad, mind posting up a list of how you would beat it? Mind backing up your assertions on how 6 preds is a n00bish idea? Mind showing your 1750 BA list (if you do play them) just so I can see how awesome it is? Go on, I'm waiting.

Heres all the help I've seen being a good humored person.

Catyrpelius wrote:Im not sure why you'd give your dread both wings and pod, it seems like a waste to me. Also, deathwind launchers are never worth it.

The biggest weekness to this list is that you have exactl 10 scoring units...Its very unlikely that your going to win an objective game.

This means in objective games, if someone manages to kill 10 marines and 2 rhino variants the worst they'll do is draw. I mean, when your using 6 preds and mepth you noramally have quite a few troops to support them.

Catyrpelius wrote:I wouldn't classify a droppod as a high AV vehicle, its imoblised when it lands, so close combat attacks and grenades will autohit against them. They are alot easier to kill then you think.

Yes we all know droppods are bad and IMO, it'll be better making units that have a chance against armoured vehicles than having an extra 'free' kill-point lying around the table.

Deadshane1 wrote:10 Marines and a bunch of Melta-bait...with no melta itself...

You (as space marines) have access to tons of cheap melta (less than guard but still a lot). If you take melta on your assault squads you'll be maximizing efficiency being able to hurt both top tier tanks and basic infantry (through assault mainly), the only area they'll suffer on is elite infantry but you have 3 Baal's to deal with that.

Catyrpelius wrote:You do see that Meph has no invulnerable save right? Its his biggest weakness. He is a tough unit, and I realize that he cant be onshot killed but every AP 3 or better hit is going to wound him, as is rending. Its why most people consider him overpriced. If he had an invulernable save, say either a shield or a Iron Halo, he would be a much better unit. He is also one model, and he can be easily taken out with volume of attacks, that is what Deadshane is trying to say I think.

Personally, I'd take a cheaper libby over mepth, in these point levels you'll be facing a ton of stuff that can wound him easily and ignore his armour while you not having the redundancy to deal with the loss.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not everyones infantry are Space Marines, I think thats what your missing here. People play other factions. just because your list is mostly involnerable from bolter firer thats not true for every army out there. Tau infantry can technicaly kill your transports, hidden power fists in Ork mobs, Lances in Eldar, melta spam in Imperial Guard. Optomizing a list to counter one army is not the way to go...

Remember tau can glance a razorbacks front and pen a razorbacks back with their standard small arm. They too will be able to pen a predators rear along with bolter equivalents. Gauss weaponry should always be taken into account as that'll rend you to death. Don't forget anything over S5 can pen your armours rear and anything with rending will make short work of your armour given some luck.

DarthDiggler wrote:No you are right. The DC is a fire and forget missile weapon. The DC player would hope they would only need one missile to fire per game. :-)

You don't necessarily need to upgrade the razorbacks, just change the free heavy flamer to a free heavy bolter. I'm not talking about making them perfect speeder killers, just make them a unit that CAN kill a speeder or even threaten 5-man Loota squads across the board. Both of those types of units usually aren't worth all the firepower a Predator will dish out.

Yes, if your hiding behind your tanks you'll want a ranged weapon. The Heavy bolter is a very good choice considering it's free, 36" and S5 Ap4 as well as twin-linked. LasPlas is generally preferred due to be able to hurt tanks and elite infantry while putting a few (meager) on basic infantry [note: I say it'll be effective against elite but not basic infantry because I generally think basic infantry being too numerous to suffer greatly from about 4 unsaved wounds.

May I also add, your plan of hiding your razors behind the preds, surely this will slow you down in early game stages as you have to hang back and wait for the razors to appear? Your paying a Premium for the ability to move fast so you should use it. If I was you, I'd drop a pred and downgrade mepth to a libby for a tactical squad in rhino then run the list like a mech army.

Meph is there for MC's so I dont have to shoot my preds at them. Lib. dreads are for tying up and covering. Autolas preds hang back a bit, the razors can catch them with 18" movement, and the autolas doesn't care about range really. What do I need the melta for? People keep saying melta take melta but when I ask why no-one answers?! What do I need it for here?

Jabbdo wrote:Meph is there for MC's so I dont have to shoot my preds at them. Lib. dreads are for tying up and covering. Autolas preds hang back a bit, the razors can catch them with 18" movement, and the autolas doesn't care about range really. What do I need the melta for? People keep saying melta take melta but when I ask why no-one answers?! What do I need it for here?

You need it as a back up, what happens when you razor assault marines get onto the table and you opponent has already destroyed several of your predators. You may have caused some damage but there will still be vehicles left. That is what melta is there for, redundancy. You should always have a back up plan for dealing with tanks and melta is a cheap and effective one.

wizard12 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:Meph is there for MC's so I dont have to shoot my preds at them. Lib. dreads are for tying up and covering. Autolas preds hang back a bit, the razors can catch them with 18" movement, and the autolas doesn't care about range really. What do I need the melta for? People keep saying melta take melta but when I ask why no-one answers?! What do I need it for here?

You need it as a back up, what happens when you razor assault marines get onto the table and you opponent has already destroyed several of your predators. You may have caused some damage but there will still be vehicles left. That is what melta is there for, redundancy. You should always have a back up plan for dealing with tanks and melta is a cheap and effective one.

Good point, ill try and squeeze some in just in case, usually I wont end up using it though because the assault squads will die if they disembark.




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What Deadshane1? Why aren't you posting your BA 1750 list?