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Interesting thing im trying to figure out regarding Teclis and the Cupped Hands...

His special rule states he ignores the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn.

However since its not him miscasting, and the cupped hands is just redirecting the miscast would he still be immune to it?

The thing that makes me think he will still take the effect of the miscast is the fact thats its saying its the miscast he makes each turn.

Well basically, the ignore miscast thing is once per turn, so if the eldar is first and he miscasts during the magic phase and the the lizzards go second and hand him another miscast (2nd or more of the turn) he's screwed, now if the lizards are first each turn and use cupped to give him a miscast then his special protective power would be spent there and he wouldn't be able to ignore miscasts in his magic phase.

Well first it says turn not game turn or player turn so you have to figure out which is meant. Page 2 of th rules sys each player takes turns so it sounds like TURN refers to player turn.

Next we look at Teclis' ability. It says he ignores the first miscast he makes. So when the cup transfers a miscast is it as if the target wizard made it?

We look at the Lizardman book entry. It tells us that the enemy wizard suffers the effect's of the miscast. It does not say that it is as if the enemy wizard miscasted.

So by RAW it looks like Teclis would still suffer the effect even if he had not previously miscasted himself that turn.

OF course an errata or FAQ could come out and say different.

Agreed with Duke_Corwin!

Teclis is just a fish compared to the powers of a Slann!

Yea i could easily be wrong due to lack of HE knowledge.

What is cupped hands?

Cupped Hands of the Old Ones transfers the first miscast a slann makes onto an enemy wizard.

One question- if I have no wizard, I guess the slann suffers the miscast himself regardless?

Also, at first I was inclined to think Teclis would ignore it, I'm not so sure now, though. I have a feeling he would suffer the effects, but I'm still 50/50...

The cupped hands say that the miscast is igored and then it goes on to say that it transfers to an enemy wizzard as an addition, thus meaning that with no enemy wizards the miscast is simply lost.

From page 102 of the lizardman army book.

If the bearer miscasts roll a D6. On a roll of 1 the bearer suffers the results of the miscast as normal. On a 2+ the miscast is ignored AND if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer the results of the miscast instead.

Knightime98 posted this synopsis that I thought was pretty elegant in explaining how to use the Cupped Hands:

1. Slann miscasts.
2. Slann Rolls on miscast chart
3. Slann elects to use Cupped hands
4. Provided a 2+ was rolled, Slann chooses any wizard (or acts as wizard) within line of sight.
5. That Wizard gets the miscast rolled in the Main Rulebook! All done..

This was in response to one of the many debates about how Cupped Hands interacted with wizards that used modified versions of what happened when they rolled a miscast.

I agree with Duke. Though not myself Duke, though I agree with myself too.

If it says the first miscast HE makes, that seems like a done deal. As he didn't make the miscast even if it's applied to him. He's such a spiffy spellcaster he can ignore HIS mistakes, but he can't stop other people from miscasting, and why would he, they're trying to kill him.

There's just something that is applying the EFFECTS of that miscast on him. At that point it is a magic item. Unless he has the ability to ignore magic items somehow (I don't have the army book) then he is affected.

I.e., he's not making a miscast, he is being hit with a magic item.

Saldiven wrote:Knightime98 posted this synopsis that I thought was pretty elegant in explaining how to use the Cupped Hands:

1. Slann miscasts.
2. Slann Rolls on miscast chart
3. Slann elects to use Cupped hands
4. Provided a 2+ was rolled, Slann chooses any wizard (or acts as wizard) within line of sight.
5. That Wizard gets the miscast rolled in the Main Rulebook! All done..

This was in response to one of the many debates about how Cupped Hands interacted with wizards that used modified versions of what happened when they rolled a miscast.

I think you have to declare you are using Cupped Hands of the Old Ones before rolling on the miscast table. The order above would allow the Lizardmen player to spare his Cupped Hands of the Old Ones if the miscast table result is forgiving.

No you determine the miscast before rolling on the cupped hands, Its how its worded and the lizard FAQ reiterates it again.

If its forgiving, then yeah you might as well eat it and save the cupped hands.

Piecing together the errata on Teclis, and the war crown of saphrey is wonky way of doing it. But... I can't really see hanging on the word "HE". As a determination of whether it works or not. Because "WE" know that when a piece of wargear from one army book, interacts with a piece of wargear from another army book, "WE" can't expect that GW had written them in such a manner that it will just sound nifty perfect.

He can dissipate the magical energies of a miscast once per turn, obviously this is intended and written with the idea that the only way a miscast can occur is if he does the messing up. It seems that the war crown grants him the ability to dissipate miscast magic once per turn, it shouldn't matter where it originated.

Is cupped hands a one shot item? Is it the only way a spellcaster in the lizardman army can ignore a miscast?

Cupped hands is indeed a 1 shot item.

RaI I would think that Teclis could dissipate the magic. Seeing as how RaI are *mostly* irrelevant we are left with what is written.

Based on what Sazzlefrats has mentioned, I would like to *think* that it works that he can dissipate the miscast, however with the word "He" being there, and RaW being the way they are, im inclined to think he would suffer the effects (as much as I don't like that ruling).

I would love to get a definitive answer on this as I play both High Elves and Lizardmen.

It's not a miscast. It's the effects of a miscast, transferred via an item.

Cupped hands is a 45 point single use item. The most expensive talisman the Lizardman race has.

The text is:
"the MISCAST IS IGNORED and if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer ITS EFFECTS"

Emphasis added. It's not transferring a miscast. It's transferring the effects.

The wording is that he may ignore the effects of the first miscast *he* makes each turn. So the key really to the argument is the SOURCE of the miscast (or its effects), and the word *He*.

The argument being that the Lizardman himself made the miscast and now it is merely being transferred has much merit. The rules certainly show that the miscast is made by the Slann, and the effects are then passed on. As Sazzlefrats pointed out, the wording of *He* in Teclis' rule might be being taken too literally. However, seeing as how we have no FAQ, and no Errata, I lean towards Teclis being forced to suffer the miscast regardless of whether I believe that is how the rule was intended.

For the record I believe that he should not suffer the effects, but there really is no basis for that within the written rules and I acknowledge that until it is FAQ'd I will be forcing Teclis to suffer the effects of my Slann's miscast with cupped hands, and when I field Teclis, will accept that miscast when it hits me.

It came up last night and we dicussed it and decided teclis does indeed take the miscast.

RaW its the first miscast HE makes on his turn. One he didnt make the miscast, second it wasnt his turn.

Also went with the fact that he can control the magic when he starts to miscast but when he is blindsided by a redirected one he cant react in time.

Could still be a debate for RAI that Teclis gets to ignore the miscast. RAW however is reasonably clear in the other direction.

Here's my suggestion, its murky, and could be reasonably argued either way. Consult with your opponent or TO. If you get a reasonable answer go for it. Or... this is where until its FAQd if it needs to be, that the almighty 4+ dice roll is used.

I'm fine in a tournament dicing for it. I play high elves, doesn't matter much, this should come up too often.

When the rules are clear, why 4+ it? Thats not what TMIR is for...

If you want a houserule agree it before the game, however when wanting to change the rules trying to force a 4+ for it is bad form - and against TMIR.

So its a clear rule now vs. a discussion? If it was a clear rule there wouldn't have been a discussion. Don't call foul on me, I just disagree perhaps. Thats kinda the point of the YMTC?

Whats TMIR? Touch me I rock? (don't get all pissy, its the first thing I found when I searched the term) Seriously how's someone supposed to know all these anacronyms.

I concur that Teclis would suffer it. He ignores his own first miscast each turn. He doesn't ignore the effects of someone else's miscast.

Sazzlefrats wrote:So its a clear rule now vs. a discussion? If it was a clear rule there wouldn't have been a discussion. Don't call foul on me, I just disagree perhaps. Thats kinda the point of the YMTC?

No, the actual RULE is clear - he ignores the first miscast HE makes, he does not ignore the effects of a miscast created by someone else.

The discussion is *entirely* whether this is "RAI" or not. Which it is, as they have had 2 oppurtunities to errata teclis (in fact more than that during 7th, but 8th there are 2 clear chances they did not take) and have chosen not to.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Whats TMIR? Touch me I rock? (don't get all pissy, its the first thing I found when I searched the term) Seriously how's someone supposed to know all these anacronyms.

The Most Important Rule. It's only there, really, when the rules are unclear. Here the rules are NOT unclear, unless you dont understand the difference between possesive and transferred usage (he vs a wizard suffers) and so trying to force a 4+ is the equivalent of me trying to state all my lizardmen are I10 WS10, because the old ones *clearly meant* for them t be the best fighers.

I've missed you Nos. I've been away too long.

Btw he's right. The rule is quite clear that he ignores HIS OWN first miscast.

Aww shucks, you make me blush.

This is what some people mistake for an unclear rule - the rule is not unclear, however people dont think it should work that way, and hence the discussion. You can certainly discuss entirely clear rules (we are doing so in this thread) without it somehow making the rule unclear.