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so in a world where plasma rifle and handheld auto RPG exists, why is the guard still equipped with "FlashLight" and "Cardboard"

can't they at least improve the stuff, you know a bit of improvement goes a really long way

note: i know of other weaponry that the guard can choose, i am talking about their standard

Because the lasgun is reliable, easy to make, and cheap.

Do you really think they could just make hundreds of billion of better guns and armor just like that? Carapace armor is very expensive to make, so I don't know how they'd give it to all the troops.

Lasguns aren't just flashlights. They can decapitate someone with a single shot, or remove limbs.

Flak Armor isn't just cardboard. It is an advanced piece of armor involving many layers of an unknown ablative and impact-absorbent armor which can can withstand an improbable amount of firepower compared to modern body armor.

Ignore 4chan, the posters there are both collectively and individually stupid.

Why is it every one downs the poor lasgun, its a good solid weapon that is just if not more powerful that the currant weapons in real life. The problem is that nigh on every thing that it is used to shot at is armoured like walking tanks.

Flack armour now is sooooo much better now than back in grimdark days of 2nd edition, back then it was a 6+ save and every weapon had a thing called armour modifiers, bolter had a -1 to armour save and -2 at close range, so no matter what you was hit with you would die.

It even said in the Codex that Flack armour while useless against all moden weapons it was better than nothing.

I know they are better than nothing and modern real world weaponry

So the it's probably time, skill and economic constraint?
rather than "Oh this is all we are going to give you ,deal with it"

Then I proclaim the IG as the ballsiest faction EVER

Well you look at it this way. A AK47 is still being used by countrys around the world.

Even when thier are far better assualt rifles in acurracy, rate of fire, etc.

But what makes AKs so good is they can be built on mass scale without the need for expensive resources and the design of these assault rifles mean they are easy to look after without cleaning or repairing.

So the Lasgun is basically a mass produced rifle. Thier maybe variants but they have a similar design and are easier to maintane then say a boltgun

It's easier to maintain in that it usually doesn't NEED to be maintained. Even the best quality boltguns are notoriously finicky, requiring constant maintenance, replacement parts, and so on . And a single clip of ammunition for boltguns often costs enough to buy several lasguns AND the laspacks used for them.

The fluff excuse is that all regiments should be equipped in the same fashion and that introducing upgrades to weaponry and armour is a hurculean task when you take into account not only all of the forgeworlds that would need to be updated but the untold billions of troopers that would need to be supplied with new kit.

that somehow make sense considering how large the Imperium


ok thanks for all the answer, i am a bit curious on how the fluff works on WH40k

i like fluff better than the "crunch"

As said the humble lasgun is the workhorse of the guard for a reason. For its cost it is highly reliable, easy to maintain and effective. Requiring power packs means no need to produce expensive munitions as said power packs can be recharged ( if treated right ). All massive things to consider when your dealing the logistics of armies and formations from numerous worlds with fighting men numbering in the tens of millions on crusades. It helps with logistics when you dont need to lug hard rounds for every gun. That said even though it isnt really shown in the codex. Imperial Guard regiments tend to keep a plethora of customized, esoteric, rare, out of production and sometimes even xenos manufacture weapons. Be it for private collections, trophies or just the odd spoils of war to sell on if they get to an age to retire from the guard. As said though these are personal effects and non standard equipment. Not allowed to be used on the field.

Also in the current state of the Imperium ( Recovering in some areas from millennia of technological stagnation/losses. Sometimes even still losing tech due to being unable to replicate it any more. ). Plus the fact that the Mechanicum doesn't look kindly upon innovation in technology any more unless it is from someone respected enough in their ranks. Even then it would be greeted with suspicion and sometimes outright revulsion. It doesn't provide a conducive environment to new leaps forward in military capability. At least on a wider trend in the Imperium. Some planets who are highly advanced do field unique and unorthodox gear. Like the elysian drop troops or vitrian dragoons.

IMHO, the Guard can field so much collective firepower, that even Space Marines would find it impossible to outmatch them. The lasgun is excellent as an all- round weapon, and its lack of specialisation in Anti- Tank or Anti- Personnel are more than made up for by its reliability and power.

Well,the las-gun can shear off limbs,but when an ork can survive decapiation (yes,they can) but when an enemy can survive decapitation,how poweful is it.also the armor contributes to the guard`s expendability,it gets torn apart by bolters (fluff wise)

So in other word, the only strategy they have is massed shooting?

now somehow it is clear, why did the imperium use the world war1 charge and shoot strategy, why there's freakishly huge tanks and so on

Picture the crates and crates of ammo you would need to transport (along with the men) if they had bolters. Now picture self-contained power packs that each person carries two of and chucks into a fire to recharge. Not really any comparison in my mind.

Something I have wondered about for a while though is why the IG weapons all have the horizontally mounted handle coming off of them? I suppose I can understand the Cadian flamethrower and the grenade launcher, but I'm surprised they don't use the same melta/plasma guns. I would think that you'd get such better support and be able to wield the gun better/longer if they were held more like a rifle, the way the SM do.

Disclaimer: The only firearms I've fired have been pistols, shotguns, and rifles. I've never had the luxury of using a SAW.

You mean horizontally handle like the one you found on Saw?( you know the top handle)

or is it somekind of a handle sticked to main body of the weapon

both seems to go into exactly one reason......
Hip firing

FUUUUDGE! wrote:Well,the las-gun can shear off limbs,but when an ork can survive decapiation (yes,they can) but when an enemy can survive decapitation,how poweful is it.also the armor contributes to the guard`s expendability,it gets torn apart by bolters (fluff wise)

Being able to surive being decapitated doesn't mean that you're able to continue fighting, at least not with anything resembling skill.

And, yeah, it's a logistics thing. Supplying an army the size of the guard is bloody expensive, so they will cut costs at every opportunity. And when you consider how many lives they have that they can throw away, each guardsman is cheap. They win through wars of attrition, and that tactic doesn't require you to have elite troops.

Retrias wrote:So in other word, the only strategy they have is massed shooting?

Strenght in numbers, lad, that's it.

Retrias wrote:now somehow it is clear, why did the imperium use the world war1 charge and shoot strategy, why there's freakishly huge tanks and so on

Because that requires lots of soldier, that outside the fluff, means more minis, that also means more $$$ for GW

Orcs have skills?

i thought they just bashed whatever the nearest to them

apparently yes

all hail IG the shooting swarm

The Imperium has progressed to the point where lives are less valuable than high technology.

In all seriousness, if arming guardsmen with more high-end weaponry and armor (like Tau battlesuits and whatnot) saved a handful of lives, it still wouldn't necessarily be cost-effective. For the Imperium, giving them the cheapest weapons and armor makes much more sense. The mortality rate of guardsmen is not only cost effective, it helps to keep down the excess population on hive worlds.

Earlier posters are entirely correct: the IG wins through attrition. With so many casualties not only expected, but integral to the battle plan/overall continued functioning of the Imperium, it only makes sense to provide them with weapons designed for low cost and ease of production (as well as efficiency) rather than hardcore weapons.

Even in the real world, we don't arm soldiers with the top-tier weaponry and armor that is available. It wouldn't be cost-effective. If every dead soldier meant $10,000 in lost equipment, we'd be screwed the first time we lost a transport to an explosive. You don't give troops the best equipment available, you give them the most efficient kit you can produce within a reasonable budget. It isn't necessarily right, but it is the way you win wars.

Jimsolo wrote:Even in the real world, we don't arm soldiers with the top-tier weaponry and armor that is available. It wouldn't be cost-effective. If every dead soldier meant $10,000 in lost equipment, we'd be screwed the first time we lost a transport to an explosive. You don't give troops the best equipment available, you give them the most efficient kit you can produce within a reasonable budget. It isn't necessarily right, but it is the way you win wars.

Or an economy at least doesn't get's wrecked when stuck in a war for about 9 years.

daedalus wrote:Picture the crates and crates of ammo you would need to transport (along with the men) if they had bolters. Now picture self-contained power packs that each person carries two of and chucks into a fire to recharge. Not really any comparison in my mind.

Another note on ammo, according to the Munitorum manual a guardsman carries the equivalent of a crate of modern small arms ammunition in his basic load. The power pack can power between 150 and 300 shots and he carries six of them while the modern infantryman only carries about 210 rounds in seven magazines. Soldiers armed with autoguns would be completely out of bullets around the time that the lasgunner has to change power packs for the first time. The comparison gets much worse when you switch to boltguns. Bolter ammunition is both bulky and horrifically expensive - they all contain miniaturized rockets, explosive charges, and fuzes. One of the reasons for the failure of gyrojets in real life is that you can't let imprecision slip into the manufacture of ammunition or else terrible things will happen to accuracy. That drives up expense because now you need every little round of ammunition to be precision manufactured. You can afford to goldplate the equipment of a force the scale of Space Marines, but you just can't do that with Guard. Most of the upgrade weapons available to Guard are some combination of expensive and specialized so it doesn't make sense to hand them out to everyone.

Well, a 57cm long magazine for 30 boltgun's shells isn't that bulky and heavy for your average guardsman[/sarcasm] xD

FUUUUDGE! wrote:Well,the las-gun can shear off limbs,but when an ork can survive decapiation (yes,they can) but when an enemy can survive decapitation,how poweful is it.also the armor contributes to the guard`s expendability,it gets torn apart by bolters (fluff wise)

So? Bolters are extremely, ludicrously rare weapons anyway. The reason they don't protect against boltguns is because there's no need for them to protect against boltguns.

Don't let tabletop fool you-- Marines are an extremely uncommon foe for all armies to face.

So? Bolters are extremely, ludicrously rare weapons anyway. The reason they don't protect against boltguns is because there's no need for them to protect against boltguns.

Isnt it also true that the boltguns used by the forces of the Astartes are crafted differently ,and in most cases in higher quality than boltguns used by other forces? I am pretty sure it mentions that in the dark heresy rulebook.

Captain Idaeus wrote:

So? Bolters are extremely, ludicrously rare weapons anyway. The reason they don't protect against boltguns is because there's no need for them to protect against boltguns.

Isnt it also true that the boltguns used by the forces of the Astartes are crafted differently ,and in most cases in higher quality than boltguns used by other forces? I am pretty sure it mentions that in the dark heresy rulebook.

It says that somewhere in Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader.

Another note on ammo from the Dark Heresy rulebook. A lasgun power pack costs 15 thrones in that game. A bolt, just one, costs 16. The cost of a lasgun and six power packs will get you ten rounds of bolter ammunition, bolter not included. A boltgun and a single full magazine costs one throne less than a suit of Guard flak armor, lasgun, six power packs, bayonet, four frag grenades, respirator, one week's rations, rucksack, medikit, and a couple bottles of good amasec. If you think that's sick, wait till you see how much power armor costs.

Guard use lasguns because they are cheap, reliable, idiot proof, and so so at killing things. Really, though, as any commisar will tell you, faith is a guardsman's strongest weapon....

Retrias wrote:Orcs have skills?

i thought they just bashed whatever the nearest to them

Which requires a lot of skill when you can't see or hear anything (what with being decapitated and all). It also requires a lot of skill if your arm has been blasted off, just like standing requires a lot of skill when your leg has been shot off.

Yak9UT wrote:Well you look at it this way. A AK47 is still being used by countrys around the world.

Even when thier are far better assualt rifles in acurracy, rate of fire, etc.

But what makes AKs so good is they can be built on mass scale without the need for expensive resources and the design of these assault rifles mean they are easy to look after without cleaning or repairing.

So the Lasgun is basically a mass produced rifle. Thier maybe variants but they have a similar design and are easier to maintane then say a boltgun

*the AK47
Though actually, AK47 clones are used more often than original AK47s. (in fact, even I have a technical clone of one! =D)
And they're still used today because they're amazingly reliable. They'll keep working if you bury them for a week and dig them up by beating the ground around them with rocks for a month.
Oh, and because 7.62x39mm is cheap as hell. And easy to fire.


Anyway, back to 40k!
I'd say that Yak9UT is correct, in that the lasgun is similar- reliable, mass-produced, and relatively hard-hitting (especially when fired in gigantic volleys).
If you ever have any complaints about the armament of the Imperial Guard, look at your average PDF.