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Having just poached a Marneus Calgar and Guard from ebay for a poultry £15, I looked in the codex and was a bit shocked to realise 250 points were the cost to put him to use.

It begs the question, are these points justifiably spent on such an expensive character, and indeed other HQ's or are you better off having a relatively standard HQ model and plonking him in instead at half the cost i.e. Chaplain Cassius?

Nah. Calgar is fun in Apoc, that's about it

Some of them are, Like Kharne or whatever that eldar guy is called.

Anything below 200 or so points is pretty justifiable.

most everyone will tell you that from a tourny stand point you want to stick with basic but effective HQ's. HQ's around 225 + usually look really cool on paper and may be fun for casual play, but they usually dont do enough damage to make up for their points.

Smithy
as a rule of thumb, if you take an HQ who costs more than 200 points you should have some kind of special justification. In practice most hqs that cost this much perform poorly because the opportunity cost is so high. For instance Abaddon the Despoiler costs 275 points, and he's way good, no doubt; but he could have been TWO demon princes with lash (almost), and in most situations the lash princes will be the better buy. Before taking calgar look over the the space marine book and ask yourself: "is this guy really the best use of my points? what else can I get for about the same cost?"
AF

Its kind of stupid but I use something I like to call the land raider test when weighing the pros of high point HQ's. I look at there stats and special rules and ask myself, "Does this guy scare me more than a land raider? Because he better since he costs as much as one!"

Seriously though your HQ doesn't exist in a vacuum is often times just one model which is pretty easy to remove for most armies if they really try. Often times if your HQ is nothing but a CC monster he is only one model that will be a waste of points if removed from the table in one round of shooting so now you have to spend even more points to protect him with expensive body guards and transports and before you know it you have built and army to benefit one model.

You have to do the opposite of that and think what your HQ can do to compliment your army. Some high value HQ's are worth their points because certain armies simply can't exist without them because they change around the FOC or they make your army play a different way that will give you a huge army wide advantage and they can be well worth their points if you build your army around that theme.

Calgar kind of falls into the first category more than the second.

Eh, Calgar does have eternal warrior and 4 wounds though - he's a lot harder to kill than most HQ choices. I'd say such an expensive model isn't the most competitive thing available, but you're not hurting yourself by using him.

Hehe, the word you wanted is 'paltry' by the way - poultry is something else.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Eh, Calgar does have eternal warrior and 4 wounds though - he's a lot harder to kill than most HQ choices. I'd say such an expensive model isn't the most competitive thing available, but you're not hurting yourself by using him.

Hehe, the word you wanted is 'paltry' by the way - poultry is something else.

... yes i see you're point and i raise you Lysander who is 65pts cheaper (well you're going to take terminator armour right?), sure he can't reroll to wound like calgar but he does have a str10 thunder hammer (also +1 to the damage table) and a 3+ inv. I know who'd win in a fight.

Yeah, Lysander is the better choice of the two, unless your plans really prefer combat tactics to stubborn. As said above though, characters like vulkan or librarians, that give you more tactical options, seem to be preferred to beatstick characters.

Sometimes that huge point sink has a purpose. For example, not space marine, the C'tan. I love my 360pt Nightbringer. Albeit the most expensive single model ever, he's useful. You can manage to take a very very expensive HQ, but knowing how and when to use him is the key. There are lists for everything, but being able to use that huge point sink with proper target priority can help you make up his points. My C'tan rarely gets outright death on his points value, but he will suck two to three times his points value of shots over the course of the game. The way I figure it, will that HQ kill? If he won't, does he debiliate the enemy army enough to justify his inclusion? As long as there's a fair balance between what he actually does and what he keeps the enemy from doing, along with how you use him, anything can be justifiable. I include my 360pt HQ all the time without thinking about it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Smithy
as a rule of thumb, if you take an HQ who costs more than 200 points you should have some kind of special justification. In practice most hqs that cost this much perform poorly because the opportunity cost is so high. For instance Abaddon the Despoiler costs 275 points, and he's way good, no doubt; but he could have been TWO demon princes with lash (almost), and in most situations the lash princes will be the better buy. Before taking calgar look over the the space marine book and ask yourself: "is this guy really the best use of my points? what else can I get for about the same cost?"
AF

I agree. For most Named characters, you can get a land raider :3 I'll take an AV 14 over calgar any day.


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themrsleepy wrote:Sometimes that huge point sink has a purpose. For example, not space marine, the C'tan. I love my 360pt Nightbringer. Albeit the most expensive single model ever, he's useful. You can manage to take a very very expensive HQ, but knowing how and when to use him is the key. There are lists for everything, but being able to use that huge point sink with proper target priority can help you make up his points. My C'tan rarely gets outright death on his points value, but he will suck two to three times his points value of shots over the course of the game. The way I figure it, will that HQ kill? If he won't, does he debiliate the enemy army enough to justify his inclusion? As long as there's a fair balance between what he actually does and what he keeps the enemy from doing, along with how you use him, anything can be justifiable. I include my 360pt HQ all the time without thinking about it.

Because you play necrons? He's even feasible in a 1000 point list. I wouldn't give him a second thought either. He's amazing.

Oh yea, there is that and he's more beastly in a 1000pt list than he is in a 2500 lol. My favorite 1500 list is him 3 liths and warriors nothing else required just hope the game goes at least 6 turns, not enough guns to shoot lol, too much ground to cover.

themrsleepy wrote:Sometimes that huge point sink has a purpose. For example, not space marine, the C'tan. I love my 360pt Nightbringer. Albeit the most expensive single model ever, he's useful. You can manage to take a very very expensive HQ, but knowing how and when to use him is the key. There are lists for everything, but being able to use that huge point sink with proper target priority can help you make up his points. My C'tan rarely gets outright death on his points value, but he will suck two to three times his points value of shots over the course of the game. The way I figure it, will that HQ kill? If he won't, does he debiliate the enemy army enough to justify his inclusion? As long as there's a fair balance between what he actually does and what he keeps the enemy from doing, along with how you use him, anything can be justifiable. I include my 360pt HQ all the time without thinking about it.

Really? Why are they fighting it at all, aren't there ANY other options to fire at? Like things that cause phase out. The nightbringer is a slow moving CC MC, one that can be avoided easily if the opponent wants to (or knows better than to stick around). If he could actually reach combat I might say he is worth actually shooting, but with his movement the chances of him actually reaching anything important are low.

My thoughts on HQ characters: Unless it is doing something amazing EVERY turn, I don't see the point in spending many points on characters. I look at them this way: how much utility can I get out of them? What does it do to my FoC? Does it help my army achieve victory by dictating the terms of battle? For space marines in most games I take librarians. They are cheap, gives me psychic defense, and the all important null zone. Or I take biker captains, for the command squad unit unlock and/or bikes as troops. Other than that, I don't like SM HQs, except for special characters that actually do something big, like khan and vulcan. Pedro almost makes the cut for me, but I don't like or use much sternguard (so YMMV)

Well, for the Ctan my favorite thing to do is deep strike two liths to cut the oppenents running away capability. Especially if I am going to be playing a dawn of war. 1 HQ 18 inchs away Im assualting second turn and using my monoliths to tag what I need to. Ive had a few luck deepstrikes that pushed units forward at me, and got off a cheap assualt that way, but there is far less that would hurt the nightbringer in CC than shoot it to death. My Ctan may not do something amazing every turn, but turns 3,4,5,6 oh they are brilliant if I play correctly. A complete mech list can sometimes run away but I try to cut them off as much as possible with my giant six inch squares of blocking and shooting terrain But, we are really on the same page, unless you can absolutlely justify that character has a purpose and is worth those points, don't take him. For my army, it's an easy choice, now if I had twenty pages of special characters like the nids... I'd be in trouble! I like simple choices and doing things no one expects with them.

themrsleepy wrote:Well, for the Ctan my favorite thing to do is deep strike two liths to cut the oppenents running away capability. Especially if I am going to be playing a dawn of war. 1 HQ 18 inchs away Im assualting second turn and using my monoliths to tag what I need to. Ive had a few luck deepstrikes that pushed units forward at me, and got off a cheap assualt that way, but there is far less that would hurt the nightbringer in CC than shoot it to death. My Ctan may not do something amazing every turn, but turns 3,4,5,6 oh they are brilliant if I play correctly. A complete mech list can sometimes run away but I try to cut them off as much as possible with my giant six inch squares of blocking and shooting terrain But, we are really on the same page, unless you can absolutlely justify that character has a purpose and is worth those points, don't take him. For my army, it's an easy choice, now if I had twenty pages of special characters like the nids... I'd be in trouble! I like simple choices and doing things no one expects with them.

ok i can just see the C'Tan working as it bring CC to an army that needs it but him and 2 monoliths ... your asking for phase out.

Ya, Necrons suck, hurrrrrr. Quick, everyone who agrees gets +1 internet points.

Sounds like you've actually played the game more than once and I believe you make an excellent point "Centerpiece" units can really affect the way a game goes, forcing the opponent to focus on one side of the board or split his forces (or just sit in the same spot regardless of mission if it's leafblower). There's more to the game than stats and numbers in a vacuum, that's for certain.

It boils down to the fact that I take out what I need to when I need to, phase out is just a part of playing necrons. I don't see it as a downfall, I see it as just another way to lose. I tend to not get phased out nearly as often as you would think. Warriors are more resiliant than most people give them credit, and as such two or three liths blocking LOS from the big guns and a Ctan being a more immediate threat, my warriors like to pick off easy targets or stun a vehicle I would not like to shoot. 10 man squad im due for 1 glance. Death is a way of life, not something to fear. Granted you are far more likely to only pull a draw than win with Necrons, I draw more than I lose for sure. Uproot that lith squatting on your objective, I dare you


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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Ya, Necrons suck, hurrrrrr. Quick, everyone who agrees gets +1 internet points.

Sounds like you've actually played the game more than once and I believe you make an excellent point "Centerpiece" units can really affect the way a game goes, forcing the opponent to focus on one side of the board or split his forces (or just sit in the same spot regardless of mission if it's leafblower). There's more to the game than stats and numbers in a vacuum, that's for certain.

Seconded! I need a new codex! p.s. sorry for the off topic and where can I spend those internets again?

I'm only a fan of hugely expensive HQs if they can manage to make their points back most of the time, or if they bring an army changing rule to make them worthwhile. For example, I field Shrike, and my army includes two squads of Assault Marines. The fleet he provides, along with outflanking one squad, provides a huge amount of mobility and a large threat that's more of a force multiplier than anything else.

No, but warriors automatically get assaulted then sweeping advanced every game since that's how the numbers work out. The internet told me so. Also, the shooting isn't good enough and even your units that are hard to kill like the monolith aren't because they're only AV14 and cost a lot of points (even though Land Raiders are good somehow) and that means you auto-phase out immediately on turn 3. Gosh, if more people read the internet they would know how games really work. Also, C'tan sucks even though it's good sometimes. Everyone from the internet knows that.

(Laying it on too thick? )

All I'm saying is as scarey as a 2 monolith and a C'tan are 770 points is a lot even at 2500pts; heck that's 30% of you're army and move phase out from 75% losses to 52.5% losses.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
(Laying it on too thick? )

thats what she told me


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Tri wrote:All I'm saying is as scarey as a 2 monolith and a C'tan are 770 points is a lot even at 2500pts; heck that's 30% of you're army and move phase out from 75% losses to 52.5% losses.

If I play properly, the enemy won't have the opportunity to shoot or assualt that 52.5% Necrons are about deception and tactics, oh look my 20 warriors you thought you were assualting are now across the board and you can't get them!

themrsleepy wrote:

Tri wrote:All I'm saying is as scarey as a 2 monolith and a C'tan are 770 points is a lot even at 2500pts; heck that's 30% of you're army and move phase out from 75% losses to 52.5% losses.

If I play properly, the enemy won't have the opportunity to shoot or assualt that 52.5% Necrons are about deception and tactics, oh look my 20 warriors you thought you were assualting are now across the board and you can't get them!

"If i play properly"? Sorry but that's not really a response, If i play properly 53% of you're army dies and you phase out. See doesn't work not a shred of evidence.

Ok so lets assume that you only take only warriors you've got 96 so won't phase till they drop to 23 after WBB. Now 96 warriors doesn't scare me as at best they can shoot a single shot 24" if they stay still. What you're not going to take the maximum necrons? Heavy Destroyers, a Lord with a resurrection orb? Hooray even less to kill.

I gave examples of playing properly, denying LOS, causing enemy target priority to shift, my deployment. It's just like any army, you can hide and keep safe what you need to to win, with Necrons, it's the troops not the heavies or HQ's or whatever else is your 'trick' for your army. Think outside the box for a minute. There is a way to win with a decent strategy, sure if I allow you to shoot only at my warriors, and they are the only Necrons there, or assualt them I will phase out. But I play a game of constant denial, by teleporting, by deployment, by causing casualties. It's not a new or inventive strategy, it does take a bit of brain power. There is always a way to beat a strategy, mine, yours whoevers. The winner is the one who comes up with it first. I take my gamble there.

So, arguing on the internet... Again, there's more to it. Terrain varies every game. There may be a huge building that his warriors can hide behind or there may only be craters. Having them in reserve is a few less turns to shoot them, and barring spamming plasma cannons they're still a bitch to deal with through shooting alone. Not saying there's no way to beat them and even the player in question says it's easier to draw than win, but I've played skilled Necron players and they're frightening.

Necrons can be a real up hill fight but the less you take the easier i find beating them. If you have to protect them, leave some in reserves or hide them in a building then they are a liability not an asset.

Would any other army take something and not try to use it? Necron players have to fight the phase out sure, but I definately don't believe any longer in hiding them off board. It's like giving your oppenent a point advantage and a new edition codex advantage. I use them, just use them wisely.


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