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So this came up yesterday in a game I was playing. Purple sun moved across a war hydra and 1 of his handlers. Would the initiative test for the hydra be taken against the handlers I or the war hydras? I assumed it would be against the monster itself but in the end we agreed to put it against the handler until we could get an official answer. Looking through the rulebook I couldn't really find anything that fit the situation.

Wouldn't they just both take an Iniative test?

They don't have a combined profile and the Hydra only jumps infront of them during Combat and ranged?

That's what I thought. However my opponent thought he had read that the monster would get to use their initiative. I don't suppose you have a page number or anything equally valuable to use?

Monster tests with its initiative.
Handlers test with their initiative.
No page number required - this should be pretty clear. They have their initiative values in their unit entries.

Yes monsters are handlers are separate model so they test separately.

Thanks a bunch...helps a lot.

In the monsters and handlers section, doesnt it say that the handlers are ignored except for randomized shooting (which doesnt apply to the hydra) and close combat attacks? You can not allocate wounds to the handlers, and their position on the board is only as a token to remember they can attack if the hydra is in CC. The monster's base itself is the entire actual unit--if you charge a handler but cant reach the hydra, then you dont charge cause the handler is not really there.

I think a more interesting question is not if the hydra can use the handlers init, but if the hydra can use the handlers leadership. Again I would say no, the handler is ignored, but LD is a fickle stat in how it applies.

Pg 73 Monster and Handlers:" ...we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit. ...In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected separately from their monster... just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter."

Purple Sun doesn't affect the handlers.

Right you are. Silly, silly GW.

Thanks for posting this luke...not sure it would have made much of a difference...hehe,.. but maybe...

Makes the hydra really vulnerable tho this i think...

I just wanted to bring up something in the rule book...and get everybody's opinion on this. I do think it is relevant and wanted to see...

Pg. 10 large rule book

Where a Model (or Unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with cavalry for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values.


In the case of the Hydra, the Handlers have a higher characteristic - they are all part of the same "unit" even though the handlers are ignored for "most" (which btw is not all) gaming purposes...just as mounts would be..except in close combat movement or other special rules such as causing fear and attacks in close combat.

Anyway, would to get everybody's thoughts...

Ah yes, but the monster is treated as the extent of the unit. The handlers are purely there so that you know they can attack if the hydra is in cc and for the monster reaction test if they die.

I think the part on page test is meant to mean combined profiles. Otherwise characters joining units would be extremely powerful (using their S for Dwellers, I for Purple Sun etc...)

Lukus83 wrote:I think the part on page test is meant to mean combined profiles. Otherwise characters joining units would be extremely powerful (using their S for Dwellers, I for Purple Sun etc...)

Actually this is exactly right a char on a monster is one model and the test is made on the highest value as per characteristic test rules (BRB page 10), that would normally mean mount S and rider I are used.

Hoverboy, one thing to note is that the hydra's handlers are not models, they are counters, and they are ignored.

As for page 10, notice how it says models OR units? The OR is very important here IMHO... you use the models highest OR the units highest--now if a spell targets a model, why do you get to switch to the unit? Likewise, if a spell has a unit based effect, your opponent could not make you test on the lowest stat in the unit, when hitting a unit you use the highest.

DevianID wrote:Hoverboy, one thing to note is that the hydra's handlers are not models, they are counters, and they are ignored.

We proved that a dozen posts ago, and i admitted to being wrong there.

As for page 10, notice how it says models OR units? The OR is very important here IMHO... you use the models highest OR the units highest--now if a spell targets a model, why do you get to switch to the unit? Likewise, if a spell has a unit based effect, your opponent could not make you test on the lowest stat in the unit, when hitting a unit you use the highest.

Yes if the test is on a per unit basis (like say panic) you use the highest in that unit, if the test is on per model basis you change that to using the models highest, which my last post was really about but i got confused , you take the models highest if it has more than one.

Ah I see now Hoverboy, when you said that was right you were talking about 1 model in particular, a guy on a mount of some kind... Trying to catch up after being out of touch of dakka thanks to ard boyz and parties and what not, forgot how old this topic was and I lost some of the context. My bad :(

No worries i myself didn't read Lukus's post properly.

mray01 wrote:I just wanted to bring up something in the rule book...and get everybody's opinion on this. I do think it is relevant and wanted to see...

Pg. 10 large rule book

Where a Model (or Unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with cavalry for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values.


In the case of the Hydra, the Handlers have a higher characteristic - they are all part of the same "unit" even though the handlers are ignored for "most" (which btw is not all) gaming purposes...just as mounts would be..except in close combat movement or other special rules such as causing fear and attacks in close combat.

Anyway, would to get everybody's thoughts...

Lukus83 wrote:I think the part on page test is meant to mean combined profiles. Otherwise characters joining units would be extremely powerful (using their S for Dwellers, I for Purple Sun etc...)

In response to these two if a mount and rider is considered a single profile unit then shouldn't a monster and its handlers be as well? I mean if they can attack in close combat and only the monster's footprint is counted on a gaming perspective then wouldn't the handlers count as being within the monsters profile?

Keeping in mind that I'm new and don't have any of the rulebooks yet, in case that comment is obviously wrong in some way.

A rider and monster are one model, handlers however are separate models so they test separate from the monster on their respective stats.

Yes they're "Seperate models" but like it was established they are just counters so tecnically the monster is the only model with added things in it's group, no?

Sorry but with all the time that passed i forgot

Ignore the handlers behind the curtain.. Every day at my game store people have questions about handlers

The easiest answer is ..

1. They are not affected by anything
2. yes they can attack you and you cant attack them
3. yeah.. they make salamanders even more powerful when they have 12 5+ ward saves basically per game

And they can do what is basically a 5+ look out sir for thei'r monster.

Does the handlers rule apply to the hellcannon as well?

Well the BRB lists it as a monster, and nothing in the army book or FAQ says the contrary.