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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/22 22:09:07
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I picked up Blitzkrieg today and wow - I have only read through the Polish lists so far, but one of the options is an armoured train, the entry for which spreads over two pages due to the size of the model in the force diagram. 4 cars (2x artillery, assault and command), with support options and a rifle platoon as well. Maxed out the platoon runs to 835 points or so. Temptation to do a Polish infantry company drastically rising now!
There are also loads of rules for the way the train works, laying down tracks at the start of the game (you choose a point on your table edge, opponent on theirs and then you get to lay the track directly between them, routing around hills). Very interesting as it is basically moveable cover which can ram enemies off the tracks, they can shoot through the train but you cannot, train can fire artillery bombardments on the move and all manner of crazy stuff that would make for a very interesting game.
Anyone else got the book yet? I'm finding it hard to resist already and we've not even seen 90% of the models yet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/22 22:58:32
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Lord of the Fleet
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Dont have it yet but yea I've heard that Poland so far is REALLY POWERFUL
its probably just new book hype but I have so far only heard huge concerns about polish lists
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 00:06:21
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Fixture of Dakka
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I was expecting the French to have the killer lists in this book (no, really).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 01:50:08
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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I have the book as well; the french look decent, especially their Char bis I tanks, which appear to be able to handle the light panzers comming at them.
The Poles have some interesting rules as well; I like the train, but their troops have decent skill-levels. They lack air-support (guess their air-fields are done at this point), but their infantry and artillery are decent enough. Their cav appears pretty elite.
The Brit stuff is good as can be expected for EW; I like the cruiser tanks (A13's and A9's) and their air-support is intercept only which is unique.
Germans have some interesting stuff as well; old infantry vs new infantry company formations, Panzer I's, II's and the Panzerfehlbswagen auf I.....good stuff.
I'm really leaning towards the French though....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 02:35:45
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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I'm really super pumped for Early War. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to get the Blitzkrieg book for a couple months, but I do plan on picking it up as soon as I can. I'm really digging the EW army boxes that Battlefront is releasing as well.
One thing I'm wondering though: Does the Blitzkrieg book have a German list for a Panzerkompanie with Czech Panzer 38(t)'s and 35(t)'s? If so, how does it look? Because I'd really like to field a Panzerkompanie based on Rommel's 7. Panzer Division in France.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 05:18:11
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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Yep....it sure does!
Czech Panzerkompanie with either Panzer 35(t)'s or Panzer 38(t) B's.
They can be up to 5-tank platoons....or you can have a combo of 3 Panzer 38(t) B's and 2 Panzer I's or vice versa for 2 Panzer 38(t) B's and 3 panzer I's.
The other formations look decent; Panzer II platoon as a combat platoon, Leichte Panzer platoons, Mittlere panzer platoons, Pioneers and Motorcycles as Weapons Platoons.
They have mobile light and heavy artillery (100's, 105's and 150mm's), air support and decent light, mixed and heavy panzerspah platoons as well.
Seems like a pretty good "all-rounder" armored company to me. They have speed and decent hitting power.
Hope this helps answer your questions.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 08:05:37
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Leutnant
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Disappointed with BF.
No AA or Air for the Poles? Bull&*%$!
Contrary to popular belief the entire Polish Airforce was not destroyed on the ground and fought valiantly. The Poles also manufactured the 40mm Bofors gun under license and had 300+ of them on strength at the start of the war.
German Aircraft losses for the Polish campaign were quite high with 250+ aircraft destroyed and a similar number seriously damaged.
Now your man over at BF has come out and said that because the Bofors guns were spread so thinly throughout the Polish army he decided not to include them, but it is interesting to note that certain German weapons that were equally scanty on the ground (and I don't consider 300+ examples of a weapon scanty) are included.
Whats gone on here is a blatant attempt to make the Early Germans Tournament competitive and it sucks.......
At my club we have been playing Early war for many years and the Polish army will continue fielding AA and Air and BF can bite me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 08:08:42
The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 14:37:29
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I think that no air for the Poles in any of their lists is probably valid given that the Polish air force was not terribly effective in supporting its army. They should have (if they didn't, I haven't got the book yet) listed the combat values of some Polish planes for historical scenarios.
I do agree that the AA guns should have been an option.
Given the fact that the Poles had not fully mobilized and the speed with which things happened, I am not sure that generic lists work well for the Poles (but maybe they are no worse than they are for anyone else). It would be interesting to see specific lists for specific Polish units at a specific point in time.
The armoured train sounds like fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 16:44:29
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Fixture of Dakka
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AFAIK Everyone except the Germans lacked tactical bombers of the type usually seen in FoW so the best the Poles could hope for is intercept only for aircraft (this should apply to the French too.
If German flak was weak in Poland it had certainly picked up by the Battle for France. British and French tactical bombers were decimated when attacking German targets. I assume the German lists cover both the Polish and French/Low Countries campaigns.
Is it true that all Polish troops are Veteran rated in the Blitzkrieg book?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 16:47:23
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Polish cavalry (mech or horses) are Fearless Vets, the rest are Fearless Trained.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 16:54:58
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Leutnant
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George Spiggott wrote:AFAIK Everyone except the Germans lacked tactical bombers of the type usually seen in FoW so the best the Poles could hope for is intercept only for aircraft (this should apply to the French too.
If German flak was weak in Poland it had certainly picked up by the Battle for France. British and French tactical bombers were decimated when attacking German targets. I assume the German lists cover both the Polish and French/Low Countries campaigns.
Is it true that all Polish troops are Veteran rated in the Blitzkrieg book?
The all-metal PZL.23 Karaś ("Crucian Carp") light bombers were originally designed by Stanisław Prauss to replace older models employed by the Polish Air Force. The third prototype that flew in 1935, with a raised pilot's seat and lowered engines for better visibility, was accepted and entered production. The first variants, PZL.23A, were fitted with Bristol Pegasus IIM2 radial engines, but these engines soon proved to be unreliable. The production quickly shifted to using Pegasus VIII engines. 40 PZL.23A aircraft were built in 1936 and 210 PZL.23B aircraft were built between late 1936 and Feb 1938. An additional number was produced for export to Bulgaria with Gnome-Rhone 14N-01 engines because the Bristol engines were licensed for use in Poland only; that variant was dubbed PZL.43. Out of the 250 available to the Polish air force by the end of Aug 1939, 23 were lost in accidents and 110 were held in reserve or used by training squadron, making 117 available for combat squadrons when the European War began. The first combat mission for this design was on 2 Sep 1939 when a PZL.23B bomber of the 21st Squadron bombed a factory in Ohlau; it was also the first bombing attack on German territory. On 3 Sep, PZL.23 bombers attacked German columns, briefly disrupting German movement, but ultimately they were intercepted by German fighters and shot down easily due to low speed and lack of armor. At the end of the Polish campaign, 67 were destroyed in combat and about 60 were lost to other reasons. At least 21 PZL.23 bombers were withdrawn to Romania as the Polish retreated through that country; 19 of them were kept by the Romanian air force, and were used against Russia after the launch of Operation Barbarossa.
The French Fielded a number of "Light Bombers" such as MB.174, Martin 167F, Po.633, Po.63-11, Bre.693, LN.41. The British of course had the Fairy Battle in army cooperation squadrons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 17:01:15
The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 17:10:41
Subject: Re:Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Fixture of Dakka
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Yes but these bombers are in the same league as the Dornier Do 17 and the Junkers JU88 (Light 'level' bombers*.) and as these bombers don't appear in FoW I assume that their Allied counterparts also do not appear. France appears to be the only country to receive such aircraft in the game. I don't know why. I did mention in my post that British and French forces used Bombers during the campaign.
Of course I'm in the dark here as I don't have the 'Blitzkrieg' book. Good post though.
* Ok, technically the JU88 can dive bomb but you get the idea.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 17:15:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 17:38:40
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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I'm going to have to agree with the lack of Polish air support here; I was shocked that they didn't at least have intercept-only aircraft.
The French and British have intercept only aircraft (MS.406's and Hawker Hurricane I's) in their lists for divisional support.
I also noticed the numerous 37mm guns available in some lists; IIRC, there were more 25mm guns available at that time period than 37's as they were new and were only recently being deployed. It's almost as if they got it backwards here as the 25's are less available than the 37's.
I also agree with the AA for the Poles; they shot down a good number of Lutwaffe bombers with ground-fire and some fighter-intercepts, so again, i was surprised by the lack of 40mm bofors AA there.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 20:19:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 17:43:43
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Leutnant
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I have to disagree. The Do17 and JU88 are Medium Bombers, many of the types I mentioned are single engined Light Bombers, not the same thing at all. The fact that Britain and France used them in a "Medium Role" is the real problem with these aircraft rather then their lack of ability to "Dive Bomb". The fairy Battle's in particular were used for battlefield interdiction rather then close air support and that was the theatre Commanders decision, and I have to say the right decision. The problem occured when they were sent to do this unescorted.
Is wargaming about repeating those mistakes? Should I just let the Germans win every game? Or should I be able to chose how to spend my points on the equipment that was avalible and see if I can do a better job?
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 19:46:15
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Aldramelech wrote:
Is wargaming about repeating those mistakes? Should I just let the Germans win every game? Or should I be able to chose how to spend my points on the equipment that was avalible and see if I can do a better job?
On the flip side, the German forces won some of those campaigns on speed and surprise. Should playing as the Germans always involve non historical battles filled with the correct, anti german equipment?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/23 23:01:05
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Endgame wrote:Aldramelech wrote:
Is wargaming about repeating those mistakes? Should I just let the Germans win every game? Or should I be able to chose how to spend my points on the equipment that was avalible and see if I can do a better job?
On the flip side, the German forces won some of those campaigns on speed and surprise. Should playing as the Germans always involve non historical battles filled with the correct, anti german equipment?
Yes but in late war the Germans lost because (among many other reasons) they didn't have enough super tanks to fight every battle and the game doesn't reflect that very well either!
The more I think about, the more I am going to stick to historical battles for early war -- I am not sure why but the point lists seem to annoy me more for early war, I have become comfortable with them for later war lists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 00:29:53
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Fixture of Dakka
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Aldramelech wrote:I have to disagree. The Do17 and JU88 are Medium Bombers
If you like, they aren't but either way it changes nothing. Let's get to the really interesting things you have to say.
Aldramelech wrote:Is wargaming about repeating those mistakes? Should I just let the Germans win every game? Or should I be able to chose how to spend my points on the equipment that was avalible and see if I can do a better job?
This is a massive and interesting question that is the basis of every historical wargame. It's too big for this thread so I'm not going to answer it properly here, a shame because it's a brilliant and far reaching question.
In terms of FoW the answer is yes, and no. FoW doesn't concern itself (directly) with the greater strategic and political elements of the war just company on company battles (which it does reasonably well, certainly in a pleasing playable form). France (and Poland) were not beaten company by company across the campaign they won and lost over the campaign (mostly they lost, as Germany did later in the war) and FOW reflects this.
Generally FoW provides units that fought as they fought in real life (with the odd variance/error from time to time) so it is entirely in keeping with the concepts of FoW for bombers used in a more strategic method or sparsely to not be made available in the company level actions that FoW represents. The Germans used their aircraft in a much more direct way (their massive casualties during the campaigns is testament to this). Your post regarding the PZL 23 backs this up (or at least lacks a reference to aircraft attacking troops as part of an attack) that they were not used in the same way as Stukas.
In short Allied bombers are out of the scope of the FoW design ethic. Polish fighters and AA are within the scope of FoW and should have been included.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 07:47:56
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Leutnant
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Endgame: You are correct, Speed and surprise are key to Germany's victory's in early war, so much so that you can argue that in most cases the Germans won by NOT fighting at all. Most Allied units found themselves in impossible situations and had to withdraw without firring a shot because they found the Germans had simply bypassed them and they were in danger of being cut off.
Don't make for a terribly interesting wargame though does it? You could go on to argue that the Allied army lists should consist of HQ,s, Cooks, field hospitals, mechanics workshops and supply trucks as this is what the Panzerwaffe spent most of its time shooting at, but again, not much fun to be had there, is there?
Battle Front's problem is that they want to sell lots and lots of all conquering Germans to people who don't know any better and lets face it, vehicle for vehicle man for man, their not that good are they?
Solution? Tailor the lists to give the Germans advantages they didn't have, and in my opinion, don't need. I have played hundreds of early war games over the last couple of years using FOW and it is more then possible to win with the Germans without giving them unfair advantages.
My main problem with all this is that there are a lot of younger players coming over from 40K who, due to crap education, know little about the war and take everything that BF say about it as gospel. If BF start behaving like Hollywood, what good does that do to history?
George: I'm glad we agree
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/24 07:51:03
The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 10:03:46
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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duncana wrote:
Yes but in late war the Germans lost because (among many other reasons) they didn't have enough super tanks to fight every battle and the game doesn't reflect that very well either!
Please tell me you are joking...
Wouldnt matter how many silly tanks they had. They didnt have the trained crews or the fuel to put in them.
Thats what lost them the war. Oh and all the wasted resources on building silly heavy tanks.
Good to see the FOW list fly in the face of reality...
Im amazed the Germans managed to win judging by 'powerful' Polish lists and and 'killer' French ones.
How does FOW handle the command and control advantage that the Germans possessed over all their opponents at the start of the war?
Aldramelech, as always your posts are well considered and thoughtful. If you play FOW it cant be all bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 10:16:03
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Leutnant
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I dont play in tournaments and my regular oppo's are as into history as me, so Im quite lucky. We have no problems with the game system, its quite good, its BFs slant on history that grips my s%*$ sometimes
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 11:03:29
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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Yes... Its the 'hollywood' history that puts me off... Plus of course Im a 20mm kinda guy!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 15:16:44
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Big P wrote:duncana wrote:
Yes but in late war the Germans lost because (among many other reasons) they didn't have enough super tanks to fight every battle and the game doesn't reflect that very well either!
Please tell me you are joking...
I was trying to be clever and say that if the Germans can take (what are close to being) one-off tanks in the late war it seems unfair that the Poles can't take an AA gun that was not terribly rare
Big P wrote:
Wouldnt matter how many silly tanks they had. They didnt have the trained crews or the fuel to put in them.
Thats what lost them the war. Oh and all the wasted resources on building silly heavy tanks.
Good to see the FOW list fly in the face of reality...
Im amazed the Germans managed to win judging by 'powerful' Polish lists and and 'killer' French ones.
How does FOW handle the command and control advantage that the Germans possessed over all their opponents at the start of the war?
Aldramelech, as always your posts are well considered and thoughtful. If you play FOW it cant be all bad.
FOW is fun, you just have to get in the right "game" frame of mind. (And it is quick which I really like)
I would assume (still not having seen the book) that the Germans are mostly rated as Veteran and the other forces are mostly rated as Trained to show the C&C advantage. But things like rating all Poles as fearless does rub me the wrong way. I am not sure that the Polish army as a whole was any more (or less) fearless than other armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 15:39:15
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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Well i suppose they had to make some decisions to make it 'gamey'. Thats part of what worries me with the system than the actual rules, though all WW2 rules do it to some extent.
I dont know how the classes work in FOW but I wouldnt see any real difference in infantry between Poland and Germany in 1939.
In Poland the Germans relied heavily on field telephones, as they did throughout the war and the radio comms really only had an effect when controlling battlegroups and interlocking ground and air assets.
I would have thought ratings of 'trained' would be more accurate for them all on a 1 to 1 basis as there was little difference at the squad level, other than the German use of a belt-fed LMG over all other nations having a magazine fed squad support weapon.
I've no issue with the rules, I have never played them to have, and the rules I play make some sweeping generalisation in order to get a fast playing game. Its more the history I dislike, and as you say, Poles not getting AA assets that they clearly used (indeed the 40mm Bofors was used against tanks near Warsaw). Why change what was historically available... Seems odd to me.
As long as they dont let players use the Neubaufahrzeuge Tank in each campaign... I will be ok. There was only three of them Well 5 in total if you class the two mild steel pre-production models) and they only served in Norway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/24 15:43:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 15:41:34
Subject: Re:Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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FOW is fun, you just have to get in the right "game" frame of mind. (And it is quick which I really like)
And this is why I got into it; I'm a transitional 40k player myself (have played the game since 2nd edition back in '94), however, I'm also a history buff as well, so FoW is quite refreshing to me.
I run Italian Bersaglieri for North Africa for MW, since the group I play in doesn't have anyone that does. They're diferent, which is why I like them, but can be competitive. However, like Aldramech has mentioned, I as well play mainly for the historical theme instead of tourneys.....I get enough of that with 40k... lol!
I would assume (still not having seen the book) that the Germans are mostly rated as Veteran and the other forces are mostly rated as Trained to show the C&C advantage. But things like rating all Poles as fearless does rub me the wrong way. I am not sure that the Polish army as a whole was any more (or less) fearless than other armies.
The German Heer forces are Confident/Trained while SS units are Fearless/Trained; they also have Motorisiert and Panzer troops which are Confident/Veteran.
Even with some of the oversights with the Poles, overall, I still like the book and it has me leaning to the French for EW....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 15:45:22
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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I hope their aint any SS Panzers in the Early War... They didnt have any till '41!!!
Why are the Czechs in it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 15:59:08
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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There aren't....they do have a Czech Panzerkompanie, which BF's explanation is they used 120 of the Panzer 35 and 38 (t)'s in the 1st Light Panzer Division as a sub for the scarce Panzer III's for the invasion of Poland.
The only SS lists are for Infantry Companys, Pioneers and Motorcycle Rifle Company's....though for Divisional Support, they do have SS AT units and some Luftwaffe Field units as well....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/24 15:59:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/24 16:01:40
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Was there (historically) any difference in organization between panzer companies with German tanks and panzer companies with Czech tanks?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/25 10:03:53
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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ThirdUltra wrote:There aren't....they do have a Czech Panzerkompanie, which BF's explanation is they used 120 of the Panzer 35 and 38 (t)'s in the 1st Light Panzer Division as a sub for the scarce Panzer III's for the invasion of Poland.
So... Normal Panzer Kompanies then.
Though I think the 38ts were in 3rd Leichte Division though for Poland.
1st Liechte Division had the 35ts.
Organisation was similar, though all units had some variation due to losses and shortages.
1st Leichte (converted to 6th Panzer in 1940) organised itsself as follows;
Light Tank Company
HQ - 2 x 35t
1st Platoon - 5 x 35t
2nd Platoon - 5 x 35t
3rd Platoon - 5 x 35t
4th Platoon - 5 x Panzer II
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/25 17:28:40
Subject: Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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Big P wrote:
So... Normal Panzer Kompanies then.
Though I think the 38ts were in 3rd Leichte Division though for Poland.
1st Liechte Division had the 35ts.
Organisation was similar, though all units had some variation due to losses and shortages.
Allegedly, the 3rd had only 55 of the Panzer 38(t)'s; the remainder were probably the Panzer 35(t)'s and other older designs.
So, yes....normal Panzerkompanies in the book. However, the breakdown is something like this;
Leichte Panzerkompanie
Mittlere Panzerkompanie
Verlastete Panzerkompanie (Truck Borne Tank Company)
Czech Panzerkompanie
Then it's infantry, pioneers and motorcycle companys after that.....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/25 17:29:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/26 10:16:42
Subject: Re:Blitzkrieg insanity!
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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For those as sad as me...
Panzer returns for 1st September 1939;
1st Leichte Division
Panzer Regiment 11 - 45 x Panzer II, 75 x 35t, 27 x Panzer IV and 6 x Befehlspanzern 35t
Im having trouble tracking down the returns for the 3rd Lt at present... Got them somewhere...
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