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It doesn't seem like a very useful thing to do in almost every situation. The only time I can think of it actually having a use is when your opponent's armor is so high that your P+S can't hurt them no matter what you roll.

I mean, you can get two attacks at your P+S, or one attack at your P+S+S. So, you're essentially dropping the power of your weapons off your attack. If you think about it, your regular attack is P+S+P+S. It just seems to me, as a new player, it doesn't really have much benefit.

Some armor is tough enough that a single hit at p+p+s will
be more effective than two at p+s. When arm is 7 or more
over p+s you can get more benefit out of a single combo strike
than out of two swings.

If the weapon p is 4 and the p+s is minus 7 vs armor, you
are rolling at minus 3 with the combo strike. If you charged,
most rolls are going to do some damage as opposed to
two weaker swings that have a 50% chance of doing no damage
even if they hit.

I don't have the hard math for when this is most useful though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:It doesn't seem like a very useful thing to do in almost every situation. The only time I can think of it actually having a use is when your opponent's armor is so high that your P+S can't hurt them no matter what you roll.

I mean, you can get two attacks at your P+S, or one attack at your P+S+S. So, you're essentially dropping the power of your weapons off your attack. If you think about it, your regular attack is P+S+P+S. It just seems to me, as a new player, it doesn't really have much benefit.

Here's the flaw in the math.

Two swings does not equal:

P+S+P+S - ARM

It equals:

P+S- ARM
P+S- ARM

You have to take into consideration the armor of your target
both times with two swings vs only the one time with a combo
strike.

It can also be helpful when you're strapped for focus/fury and that one combined attack can one-shot your opponent. Not particularly common in run-of-the-mill infantry, but models like Xerxis and the Marauder can pull off POW 20 combos with no focus investment. If you only need one hit, and can only boost the one anyway, combo strikes are a great choice.

There're also some situations when you know that the effect of the first hit won't let you make another - eg. Repenter's shield.

Combo strike with a McThrall on the charge is my goto for jacks. P+S 15 + 3d6 is waaaay better than P+S 11 + 3d6 then P+S 11 + 2d6. That 4pts is a huge difference on damage rolls.

I think a jack combo strike is a good idea if you have the charge, and are hitting a jack, then you have 2 focus left to buy an attack and boost damage.

A heavy hitting a heavy, you shouldn't need to boost too often. You should work out buffs/debuffs to make that not an issue.

I'm not going to post the Math to back myself up but for maximum damage:

If POW is 3, use Combo Strike when P+S gives you dice-5 or less
If POW is 4, use Combo Strike at dice-4 or less
If POW is 5, use Combo Strike at dice-3 or less

And so on.

e.g. with POW 4 and STR 7(P+S 11), you'd use your two initial attacks from ARM 0 through ARM 14 but your Combo Strike at ARM 15 and up.

Ignoring abilities and like, of course. Charging is irrelevant.

Personally, I do it for the look on my opponent's face when I tell them I'm hitting them at Power 22+.

Cast Rage on a Juggy and you can do it all the time.

*pst* It's called Fury.

As far as the Slayer is concerned you should combo strike anything with an ARM higher than 18 that you can hit reliably.

Generally Mechanithralls should combo strike against anything with more than one wound that they can hit reliably.

Look at a khador Marauder's combo strike. The only thing you wouldnt combo strike would be infantry.

I use it on Mc Thralls all the time. P+S 15 is awesome. On a Slayer? Not so useful, but if I wanna take out a Khador 'Jack or something after wailing on it for a bit, I'll combo. Good finisher, basically.

Thanks for the advice guys! I was sincerely curious as to when a combo strike would be more potent than two regular strikes. I also found it quite interesting how a lot of the examples given were models that I use.

Mathmachine would tell you that if their armor is higher than 7 or higher, it would cause more damage to use combo strike.

However, this is not taking into account defense...

I'll figure out the exact equation, but generally it will sum up to this

Combo Strike when:
(Mat - Def < 7) && (P+S - Armor < 7)

Strike twice when:
(Mat - Def > 7) && (P+S - Armor > 7)

I'll Mathmachine it out in excel later and make a pretty graph to show you the most optimal solution, but the above will be fairly accurate, what it is not taking into account is if overall defense is less than seven, and armor above seven, or vice versa.

Keep in mind that in the case of the Slayer, you also giving up your head attack when you combo strike. One strike for the price of three, as it were.

Now, the head attak is a significantly lower POW, but it is something to keep in mind.

The math still works out so that ARM 18 is your turning point. On average, with unboosted rolls, the Slayer is dealing 11 damage against ARM 18 either through a Combo attack or through three initial attacks, so the decision to combo or not really is determined by the DEF of the target and special abilities in play.

Concerning DEF, its really a question of gambling all damage on a single roll vs getting at least some damage across multiple rolls even if one roll fails. Against higher DEF, its definitly cheaper to boost a single combo attack roll than it is to boost three individual rolls, unless you have Dark Guidance of course.

Individual rolls also give you the outside chance to roll really well for damage three times (Initial attacks' 26 max damage vs the combo attack's 16 max damage, all unboosted). But then again luck is a harsh mistress.

Combo-Strike also has a higher chance to knock out a System on a `Jack. All of it's damage is going to go against one column, baring what carries over into the next (and next again and again if you're lucky). Where as several normal attacks may just scrap hull damage off without going down far enough to cause critical damage.

maaksel wrote:Mathmachine would tell you that if their armor is higher than 7 or higher, it would cause more damage to use combo strike.

However, this is not taking into account defense...

I'll figure out the exact equation, but generally it will sum up to this

Combo Strike when:
(Mat - Def < 7) && (P+S - Armor < 7)

Strike twice when:
(Mat - Def > 7) && (P+S - Armor > 7)

I'll Mathmachine it out in excel later and make a pretty graph to show you the most optimal solution, but the above will be fairly accurate, what it is not taking into account is if overall defense is less than seven, and armor above seven, or vice versa.

This is not correct at all.

Take a Bane Knight, for example. POW 4, STR 7, P+S 11, P+S+S 15.

7 is the average result of rolling two dice. That means a Bane Knight will do, on average, 18 and 18 damage with two initial attacks or 22 damage with one combostrike, before ARM.

Against ARM 13(P+S - ARM = -2), you'll do, on average, 10 damage with two initial attacks or 9 damage with one combostrike.
Against ARM 14(P+S - ARM = -3), you'll do, on average, 8 damage with two initial attacks or 8 damage with one combostrike.
Against ARM 15(P+S - ARM = -4), you'll do, on average, 6 damage with two initial attacks or 7 damage with one combostrike.

But Bane Knights can't combostrike.

Revvy wrote:

maaksel wrote:Mathmachine would tell you that if their armor is higher than 7 or higher, it would cause more damage to use combo strike.

However, this is not taking into account defense...

I'll figure out the exact equation, but generally it will sum up to this

Combo Strike when:
(Mat - Def < 7) && (P+S - Armor < 7)

Strike twice when:
(Mat - Def > 7) && (P+S - Armor > 7)

I'll Mathmachine it out in excel later and make a pretty graph to show you the most optimal solution, but the above will be fairly accurate, what it is not taking into account is if overall defense is less than seven, and armor above seven, or vice versa.

This is not correct at all.

Take a Bane Knight, for example. POW 4, STR 7, P+S 11, P+S+S 15.

7 is the average result of rolling two dice. That means a Bane Knight will do, on average, 18 and 18 damage with two initial attacks or 22 damage with one combostrike, before ARM.

Against ARM 13(P+S - ARM = -2), you'll do, on average, 10 damage with two initial attacks or 9 damage with one combostrike.
Against ARM 14(P+S - ARM = -3), you'll do, on average, 8 damage with two initial attacks or 8 damage with one combostrike.
Against ARM 15(P+S - ARM = -4), you'll do, on average, 6 damage with two initial attacks or 7 damage with one combostrike.

Yes, but you're not taking into account defense. You may do slightly more damage with the combostrike, but you have a better chance to do a large amount of damage with more than one attack, up until a certain point, as noted by Maaksel.

Aduro wrote:Combo-Strike also has a higher chance to knock out a System on a `Jack. All of it's damage is going to go against one column, baring what carries over into the next (and next again and again if you're lucky). Where as several normal attacks may just scrap hull damage off without going down far enough to cause critical damage.

I never thought of it that way. That's a good point to mention since I've been having trouble with my damage being sorta spread over the grid and not doing a whole lot in terms of keeping myself alive during their activation.

Aduro, you're my favorite because you play all the same armies that I do and you have neat kirby avatars!

MasterDRD wrote:But Bane Knights can't combostrike.

Oops :x I honestly don't have all that much experience playing against Cryx yet, was trying to go with an example that had been posted in the thread already and got them mixed up with the McThralls.

Tarot wrote:
Yes, but you're not taking into account defense. You may do slightly more damage with the combostrike, but you have a better chance to do a large amount of damage with more than one attack, up until a certain point, as noted by Maaksel.

The relationship between MAT/RAT and DEF is actually unimportant when considering average damage. A 75% chance to hit has the same effect on a singular powerful attack as it does on two weaker attacks.

The exception comes in when considering boosting. If you need to boost the attack roll, the combostrike becomes much better. If you can boost both of the damage rolls, it'll probably be better to go in that direction.

Revvy wrote:

MasterDRD wrote:But Bane Knights can't combostrike.

Oops :x I honestly don't have all that much experience playing against Cryx yet, was trying to go with an example that had been posted in the thread already and got them mixed up with the McThralls.

Tarot wrote:
Yes, but you're not taking into account defense. You may do slightly more damage with the combostrike, but you have a better chance to do a large amount of damage with more than one attack, up until a certain point, as noted by Maaksel.

The relationship between MAT/RAT and DEF is actually unimportant when considering average damage. A 75% chance to hit has the same effect on a singular powerful attack as it does on two weaker attacks.

The exception comes in when considering boosting. If you need to boost the attack roll, the combostrike becomes much better. If you can boost both of the damage rolls, it'll probably be better to go in that direction.

Lol I got what you were trying to say, I was just trolling you for the lulz.

Some other things to consider when making the decision, The revengers shield, the lancers cortex frying shield, boosting to hit, and models that get to attack back if you miss. For instance one boosted combo strike from a slayer may kill Ashlynn, but every time you miss her she gets to hit you back.