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In the rulebook it states magical spears confer a +1 st bonus when mounted, they mention that after the charge the rider then uses his hand weapon.

Now reading the magical section it states that a character would always use his magical weapon.

If I a reading this right when armed with a magical spear you will always have the +1 st bonus when mounted?

the rules for spear don't state the ST bonus only applies when the spear wielder charges.

any thoughts?

You won't as you can only use the spear when you charge. If your not using the spear, how can you be benefiting from it?

It states before the individual weapons that ''A man (str3) wielding a halberd (+1str) will then strike at Strength 4 when fighting in close combat''
if your using a hand weapon. your not holding the spear.

With a normal spear you would get +1 str on the charge, then continue using handweapon at base strength.

But with a MAGIC SPEAR!
That is a very good point :O

RAW it seems legit to me that you always have +1 strength but RAI obviously isn't supose to work that way.
But theres a bit of confliction between Spears/lances saying are only used when you charge, And magical spears/lances Always must be used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now the logical answer regardless of what the rules say is No. even if you continue to use a magic spear in close combat you shouldn't benefit from the +1 str.

For arguement sake it is true it does not state the +1 str is only on the charge, it says the spear can only be used on the charge.

Page 501 - Im using this one
''A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons.''

Page 91 - Spear (mounted)
''*A spear is only used in a turn which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon''

page 89 - Close combat weapons
''If a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the close combat phase - he cannot elect to use his hand weapon instead.''

''The one exception to this rule is that if the model also carries a magical close combat weapon of some kind, he will always use it in preference to other weapons he carries''

By these rules the Magic weapon that counts as a spear will have the spear rule. So after the first turn he will have to use his hand weapon. The magic weapons rule says he cannot use any other close combat weapon. The rule for his magic weapon says he cannot use it after the first turn.

This leads me to believe if you have a magic spear/lance you can't actually attack after the turn you charge.

But that is just silly :p

The special close combat weapons also go on to say if the Weapon is rendered useless he can use his hand weapon!

But the weapon is not useless? it just can't be used at the moment in time ?

More specific rule (switch off spear after 1st round) takes precedence over more general ("I'm using this one").

If a magic weapon counts as a spear, it has to use the spear rules. Which means after the first turn of combat, it has to stop using it.

The actual RaW implications of this would be that you don't get the OTHER benefits of a magical weapon (ie, the DE item that is a lance and killing blow - would only get KB in the first round).

This does seem really weird.

The way i'd play it, according to my logic, is, continuing with the above DE example, that the character wielding it, would get +2S on the charge, with killing blow, and then in other rounds (or if he didn't charge) he would still get killing blow but use his base strength. The way i'd see it is this: the weapon gives the character killing blow, and is also a lance, so he will get +2S on the charge.

However i can see that my reasoning could be easily argued with, as it's the actuall weapon that gives him killing blow, but that's just the way i'd play it.

Killjoy00 wrote:More specific rule (switch off spear after 1st round) takes precedence over more general ("I'm using this one").

What is to say the magic weapon ruling is not the "specific rule" and that the spear rule is "general"

My main point of confusion is that the spear rule does not state that the st bonus only applies on the charge, in other rulings (flails spring to mind) the rules state that the bonus only applies for the first round of combat etc etc

RAW as far as I can tell is that the st bonus can be used after the charge though I do agree it sounds weird

One rule says you use a weapon in every round of combat. The other says you only use it when you charge. It is more specific.

A clue to the fact that it is more specific is that it already overrides another more general rule - that you have to use a spear instead of a hand weapon in every round according to the general rule on the interaction between hand weapons and specific weapons.

It does specify that you can only use it when you charge. In fact it specifies more than that - you can't even use it the turn after.

Wow, that's interesting... will check more on it when I get home today. If it's true, that's another bummer for mounted characters (especially of the wood elf variety) that want to use spears with special rules...

My friend said theres a note in the bretonnia book that states if you have a magic lance you can continue to use it after the charge. Though it may be a bretonnia only thing.

Now there's an argument.

The BRB says lances give +2 str, but can only be used in combat.

The Bret book says a character with a magical lance will always use it, even in subsequent rounds of combat.

Luckily, none of the Bret magic weapons count as lances. Some have lance in their name and give "+2 strength on the charge when mounted."

I understand where you are coming from killjoy00 but my interpretation is as follows; a character with a magic spear will continue to use it in combat after the initial charge, now in the spear description it states that the spear is only used in the turn the wielder charged into combat this is overridden by the magic weapon rule stating the character must use the magic weapon. now the problem is is that the spear rule does not state that the +1 st is only gained in the turn the charges, its profile just says +1 st!!!!

the rules as quoted below is where I am getting this from!!! thanks Seon

Seon wrote:

Page 501 - Im using this one
''A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons.''

Page 91 - Spear (mounted)
''*A spear is only used in a turn which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon''

page 89 - Close combat weapons
''If a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the close combat phase - he cannot elect to use his hand weapon instead.''

''The one exception to this rule is that if the model also carries a magical close combat weapon of some kind, he will always use it in preference to other weapons he carries''

Why would Brets need permission to continue using their magic lances?

Hrm, I don't know- as much as I want characters to be able to continue to use their magical spear, it seems to me that the page 91 rule is going to override it. I could go either way, as it seems a bit unfair and in all other cases a character cannot choose to use their hand weapon, but that looks to be what it is for spears...

The only question is if page 501 somehow overrides this- that a character with a magical spear cannot elect to use another weapon. Those two rules are in clear disagreement, but it seems to me that the fact that it's a spear means, RAW, he has to switch to a hand weapon after charging (or even doesn't get to use it if he gets charged). Hrm...

Magical spears are more specific than normal spears.

I don't think so - at the very least they are equally specific.

Despite the BRB's protestations that the "one" exception is magical weapons, spears operate as an exception too.

Furthermore, they wrote the +2 str, +1 str, can't be used after first round of combat language. If you believe they meant for magical lances to give +2 str every round of combat....

And last, they could have errata'ed away the "useless" Bret language if that's how they meant it to work. It seems very unlikely that they did.

It makes sense to me that when you charge with your magical spear, you get the +1 to S and any added magical benefits. Then in the next round of combat, you can still stab with your magical spear and receive any magical benefits, you just don't get a +1 to S.

I like that term killjoy00 "combat language" it implies that the strength bonus is indeed for the first round only!

I think it is safe to assume that RAI would be that you get the ST bonus on the charge,

For fear of being "that guy" just thought that RAW could be interpreted in one of two ways (I am basically playing devils advocate here);

1) you always get the ST bonus as you never drop the spear and you are mounted.
2) you drop the spear in which case you lose the magical benefits and makes these kind of magic weapons very overpriced.

unless anyone has any major objections I think we can all agree that the ST bonus only applies on the turn of the charge but you will still benefit from any magical gains in future round of combat!!