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Made in us
Grovelin' Grot Rigger




I was wondering but couldnt find in the rulebook, when a unit has a specific list of wargear, does it go onto the field with all of that gear or only what you have glued/magnetized to it. For example a chaos space marine's wargear consists of power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, close combat weapon, and bolter. But if you have a bolter glued to it does that mean it can still use the bolt pistol and close combat weapon for the extra CC attack?

 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Texas

WYSIWYG rules are a little wonky. generally speaking I usually assume a model has its default gear unless carrying a special

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

WYSIWYG dictates that all wargear must be modeled on the mini, however I have never seen anyone argue that your model does not have default wargear simply because you didn't take the time to model a bolt pistol in a holster and a couple of frag grenades.

Special wargear (basically anything that you pay for) needs to be modeled, though, under strict WYSIWYG. Most players in friendly games will let you get away with some tomfoolery (especially in the name of creative modeling) but most tournaments will require your Chaos Space Marines with plasma guns to be modeled as holding plasma guns.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




SaintHazard - actually BRB rules for WYSIWYG only apply to Characters, with an extension for "all models in the Eldar codex" thanks to a line in the eldar codex stating such.

As such, RAW, only [upgrade, special, independent] characters [+the entire eldar codex ] must have the correct equipment. So Chaos marines get ALL their wargear, not just what you modelled.

In practice however most tournies and friendly gamers would expect you to have all optional equipment, such as melta/ plasma / flamer etc modelled appropriately to avoid confusion. Again "counts as" is also normally allowed as long as it isnt confusing.

This means, for example, that you cna happily model jhust bolters on your basic chaos marines, maybe some with BP+Chainsword, and noone will normally mind - and if they DO mind they dont actually have a rules-leg to stand on. The main "trick" to this is that nothing should be too confusing, or allow cheating (intentional or otherwise) to occur too easily.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Can you give me a page number and a quote that states that only characters must have their equipment modeled properly?

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Look under the rules for characters. That is the only time ANY requirement is made on modelling options / upgrades. You will note there is no general wysiwyg rule, unlike Fantasy.

That is why you dont need one saying ONLY characters must model upgrades - it is a restriction and not permission.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Then I stand corrected!

However, in this scenario, could RAW not be utilized to confuse the opponent by modeling all manner of weird crap and abusing "Counts As"?

Seems shady to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 14:41:01


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Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






WYSIWYG state that "especially characters" has many optional weapons, and that "The rule is that such equipment must be visualy represented on the model", so you could argue that other models are not excluded, "such equipment" imply all optional equipment in the army thanks to the wording "especially characters", and that seems to be the general interpretation. But I also see nosferatu1001s point, and as you say, its only stated in the character section.
Anyway, on topic, wargear listed in base equipment dont need to be modeled, since WYSIWYG concerns optional wargear and upgrades.

Trolls n Robots, battle reports på svenska https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbeiubugFqIO9IWf_FV9q7A 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes, you could abuse RAW. Damn easy way to either a) not find anyone to play against (friendly games) or b) get DQ'd from a tourney.

In other words a lot like kneeling Wraithlords it *could* happen, but tends not to.
   
Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
I see your point, even agree to most of it. Me and my friends usually just point out what kind of gear the units and characters have, and its no problem. Heck, against TAU they could say whatever and I wouldnt have a clue if it was represented on the model or not

Trolls n Robots, battle reports på svenska https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbeiubugFqIO9IWf_FV9q7A 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
I see your point, even agree to most of it. Me and my friends usually just point out what kind of gear the units and characters have, and its no problem. Heck, against TAU they could say whatever and I wouldnt have a clue if it was represented on the model or not

No, like modeling all of your miniatures with squishy bits of sticky tack, telling your opponent what has what at the beginning of the game, and expecting them to remember, then taking advantage of their confusion when they don't.

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Made in au
Courageous Questing Knight






Australia

effectively, sm must all have bolt pistols on the model.

therefore, they must have a bolt pistol on them.
Yet, GW doesn't give you enough for 10 bolt-pistols in their sprues.

interesting...

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Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
No, they can only fire one weapon because the rules in the Shooting Chapter say so.

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Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






Gwar! wrote:
Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
No, they can only fire one weapon because the rules in the Shooting Chapter say so.


Who said anything about shooting twice? Im talking about the standard devastator not having the heavy weapon listed (at least for long fangs its an Option) and WYSIWYG only apply for characters. (making an ordinary marine fully acceptable as a devastator with plas can)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 15:51:34


Trolls n Robots, battle reports på svenska https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbeiubugFqIO9IWf_FV9q7A 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Fayric wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
No, they can only fire one weapon because the rules in the Shooting Chapter say so.


Who said anything about shooting twice? Im talking about the standard devastator not having the heavy weapon listed (at least for long fangs its an Option) and WYSIWYG only apply for characters.

Careful there.

Listed /= modeled.

If they have the weapon listed but not modeled, the model has the weapon.

If all they have is the boltgun listed, regardless of what's modeled, the model has a boltgun.

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Made in us
Grovelin' Grot Rigger




So would a model with wargear bolter, close combat weapon, and bolt pistol still get an extra close combat attack even if it was modeled with a bolter?

 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





Yes.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Fogarsi8708 wrote:So would a model with wargear bolter, close combat weapon, and bolt pistol still get an extra close combat attack even if it was modeled with a bolter?

Absolutely. If it has a CCW and a bolt pistol, it gets an extra attack for having the second close combat weapon.

Very few models have the option to take a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW, though (Plague Marines are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).

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Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






SaintHazard wrote:
Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
I see your point, even agree to most of it. Me and my friends usually just point out what kind of gear the units and characters have, and its no problem. Heck, against TAU they could say whatever and I wouldnt have a clue if it was represented on the model or not

No, like modeling all of your miniatures with squishy bits of sticky tack, telling your opponent what has what at the beginning of the game, and expecting them to remember, then taking advantage of their confusion when they don't.


Actually I wouldnt mind an opponent doing that, but for my own army I have as much WYSIWYG as possible (meaning most of the army). I enjoy modeling, but some people has gotten the Idea that it is just the gaming part that is important. I dont really mind that as long as its a fair enough fight and both players enjoy it.

Trolls n Robots, battle reports på svenska https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbeiubugFqIO9IWf_FV9q7A 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Fair enough if you want to deal with that.

Personally, I like being able to tell which of those Space Marine dev squads has four lascannons and which one has four multimeltas, so I can kill the one that can pop my tanks at 48" first. And I don't like having to remember which is which.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 16:02:32


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Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






SaintHazard wrote:
Fayric wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Fayric wrote:Abuse RAW? Like saying a devastator with a boltgun can fire plasma cannon shots because WYSIWYG only aply for charachters?
No, they can only fire one weapon because the rules in the Shooting Chapter say so.


Who said anything about shooting twice? Im talking about the standard devastator not having the heavy weapon listed (at least for long fangs its an Option) and WYSIWYG only apply for characters.

Careful there.

Listed /= modeled.

If they have the weapon listed but not modeled, the model has the weapon.

If all they have is the boltgun listed, regardless of what's modeled, the model has a boltgun.

No , not RAW, because only characters have to model optional equipment, as Nosferatu1001 stated. So I can buy las cannons and whatever but use an ordinary marine. Like I said abuse RAW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its not something Id do, I said it to point out the stupid interpretation Nosferatu did


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry about the of topic. I see this is getting in to a weary misunderstanding. Ill keep quiet now.
PS Grey hunters get pistols ccw and bolter

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/23 16:08:05


Trolls n Robots, battle reports på svenska https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbeiubugFqIO9IWf_FV9q7A 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Ah, then yes, you're correct. Technically, if Nos is correct about WYSIWYG only applying to Characters, then yes, you could model a Long Fang with a bolter but pay for a lascannon and fire a lascannon.

But like you said, doing that to gain an advantage is arguably an abuse of the rule.

I'm fair certain anyone who tried that in my FLGS would quickly be singled out as TFG.

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Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






SaintHazard wrote:
Fogarsi8708 wrote:So would a model with wargear bolter, close combat weapon, and bolt pistol still get an extra close combat attack even if it was modeled with a bolter?

Absolutely. If it has a CCW and a bolt pistol, it gets an extra attack for having the second close combat weapon.

Very few models have the option to take a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW, though (Plague Marines are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).


Most Chaos marines(Plague, Noise, Standard Troops, Havocs) and Space Wolf Grey hunters all have BP, CCW, and Bolter/Boltgun

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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Kommissar Kel wrote:
SaintHazard wrote:
Fogarsi8708 wrote:So would a model with wargear bolter, close combat weapon, and bolt pistol still get an extra close combat attack even if it was modeled with a bolter?

Absolutely. If it has a CCW and a bolt pistol, it gets an extra attack for having the second close combat weapon.

Very few models have the option to take a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW, though (Plague Marines are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).


Most Chaos marines(Plague, Noise, Standard Troops, Havocs) and Space Wolf Grey hunters all have BP, CCW, and Bolter/Boltgun

I stand doubly corrected.

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





sorry wrong thread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/23 18:04:27


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Add chosen to the list as well
   
 
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