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So I was playing yesterday and got into a minor argument with my opponent regarding rolling to wound on weapons that cause ID due to strength being double the recipient's toughness.

My argument was that you roll to wound, and, as always, a roll of 1 automatically fails regardless of Strength versus Toughness (as described in the strength-to-toughness reference chart) but causes instant death if it succeeds in wounding the model.

My opponent argued that wounds that cause instant death do not require you to roll at all - it's an automatic kill. So if you hit a T4 model with a S8 power fist, you don't need to roll to wound, as it causes one instant death with no armor saves, but you do roll invulnerable saves - there's just no "to wound" roll.

So I turn to you, Dakka. Which of us was correct? With weapons with S double the opponent's T, do you roll to wound, and one a 1, can it still fail? Or does it just cause one automatic kill and you just skip straight to saves?

Thanks.

I have to ask WTF your opponent was on that day because I want some of that.

You must successfully wound your opponent before Instant death comes into play. Suffering a wound acts as the trigger for several things in game terms:

-Instant Death
-LD test for force weapon
-FNP test

That's just a snippet. You always always always have to roll to wound, even for ID. In your example, 2+ to wound = squelch.

ID requires you to have suffered a wound, it does not state you get to bypass the "to wound" mechanism.

That's what I thought!

Thanks guys.

It was a kid, so in order to avoid an argument we played it his way.

I noticed that my power fists were killing a few more of his Terminators in close combat under his rules than they would under the actual rules.

*Breaks out the mini BRB that came with his AOBR set*
*Turns to page 19, and then to 26*

I think what's being misunderstood by your opponent is that in order for a wound to be considered "unsaved", the wound must first be inflicted, and thus a "To Wound" roll must be made, as dictated on page 19. And while I can't find anything to support either of your sides distinctly, as it doesn't say that wounds must or must not be rolled for under the "Instant Death" section on page 26, I would argue that the wound must happen first before a save can be "unsaved", if at all.

Next time you play this person, if you do at all, have him cite in the BRB where it says that's true. Because going by RAI (which I'm sure could open another can of worms, in of itself), you're right.

Hope that clears things up for you.

You cannto find it explicitly because it isnt needed - you ONLY check for ID *once a wound has been inflicted*, which requires a "to wound" roll.

Page 38 at the bottom of the to wound chart states that a roll of 1 never scores a wound.

P 26 under instant death states "...if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack..."

so you still have to roll to wound.

DeathReaper wrote:Page 38 at the bottom of the to wound chart states that a roll of 1 never scores a wound.

P 26 under instant death states "...if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack..."

so you still have to roll to wound.

...better late than never, I guess?

Protip: answering a question that's already been answered is decidedly less than useful.

B+ for effort though.

Yea sorry about that I wasn't paying attention to the others, was watching football :-)