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And I'm pretty worried about him. He's a longtime friend and one of the most brillant people I've met, but he's unintentionally a bit of a jerk. Because of Asperger's, he can't read people's emotions well, he can't tell when he's offending people, lacks political and work ethics, and doesn't seem to understand why his views would be considered unacceptable by modern society. I'm not saying he's Hitler or anything, but he seems to follow a poorly thought-out and 'Machiavellian' philosophy that doesn't work out for anyone, himself included.

I worry about what he's going to do when he leaves home. He overestimates his own abilities and acts quite coldly towards people he isn't familiar with, so he's going to be a fish out of water. His parents understand his condition, but don't want him hanging around the home once he reaches adulthood (they're a business family).

What am I supposed to do, Dakka? He's one of my few childhood friends (and vice versa) and I can't just leave him hanging, but he's reluctant to try and change.

As someone with a diagnosed psychological condition, you really can't do a lot. As a friend you can only do what you think is best, but if you do not feel that he is in a position to receive help, then there is nothing you can do short of what will likely be viewed as an intrusive intervention. This is not your place, even as a friend, if your friend believes that you are outstepping your business.

Presuming that you know better than him what to do with his life is a big statement - I understand if you're just worried, but you're creeping up on that stage of life where you have to let some people go, no matter how 'brilliant' they are. I've had plenty of good friends go off the rails due to grand religious pursuits ("I'm gonna start a movement!") and delusions of granduer ("self justification of selfishness, etc."), but all I can say is 'I don't like your attitude' where it applies to me.
Some people can't take criticism, and Asperger's is a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot kind of condition in this situation. Third-party help is something you can possibly help to ecourage his parents to seek out, but even bad parents can raise brilliant children.

Try to have a serious talk with him, but don't beat yourself up about it. You're 16, dude. Over the next few years you'll have reshuffled 80% of everyone you consider 'friends' anyway.

My best friend suffers from Asperger's and also had virtually identical traits as your described. But he turned out fine, has a great job and a great gal too. My advice is to simply let him make his own way and be there to help when he need's it. That what I did to my friend and he turned out just fine.

Sure he never knows when he's annoying the hell out of me and my family when he's over, but people learn what he's like and that he has a good heart and never take it as face value.

'Machiavellian' philosophy implies something rather... other... than a 'good heart'.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Try to have a serious talk with him, but don't beat yourself up about it. You're 16, dude. Over the next few years you'll have reshuffled 80% of everyone you consider 'friends' anyway.

QFT. I don't see anyone I was friends with when I was that age. Well, maybe one bloke.

Cheese Elemental wrote:What am I supposed to do, Dakka? He's one of my few childhood friends (and vice versa) and I can't just leave him hanging, but he's reluctant to try and change.

Then you're up a creek. Unless you want to babysit him for the rest of his life there's not a damn thing you can do.

He sounds like a dick to me mate, id go get some new friends.

Cheese Elemental wrote:And I'm pretty worried about him. He's a longtime friend and one of the most brillant people I've met, but he's unintentionally a bit of a jerk. Because of Asperger's, he can't read people's emotions well, he can't tell when he's offending people, lacks political and work ethics, and doesn't seem to understand why his views would be considered unacceptable by modern society. I'm not saying he's Hitler or anything, but he seems to follow a poorly thought-out and 'Machiavellian' philosophy that doesn't work out for anyone, himself included.

I worry about what he's going to do when he leaves home. He overestimates his own abilities and acts quite coldly towards people he isn't familiar with, so he's going to be a fish out of water. His parents understand his condition, but don't want him hanging around the home once he reaches adulthood (they're a business family).

What am I supposed to do, Dakka? He's one of my few childhood friends (and vice versa) and I can't just leave him hanging, but he's reluctant to try and change.

Well, for one, you're talking about acceptable to modern society, when that is somewhat a matter of definition, which is probably the entire problem. His definition of "society" probably differs a great deal from the norm.

I've read a bit about autism spectrum disorders. I never had serious problems and was never diagnosed with a disease, but I had some personality traits growing up that are similar but much less "extensive" than someone who is diagnosed with something like that. I know I was tested for hearing disorders in preschool because I wasn't responding "appropriately" to others, and I didn't understand that I needed to return a greeting in order to not be rude up until I was in junior high school. I have also always been fascinated with firearms, to the point that I was neglecting other activities in elementary school to draw exploded diagrams of various guns. Given how much awkwardness these personality traits caused, I can't imagine what it is like to have these sorts of "differences" to the point that many would consider them pathological ( thats another debate for another time).

If you personally find his philosophy offensive, I would try to explain that sometimes other people are hurt by those words, much like someone would hurt this person by verbally demeaning him.

He's probably read enough books and studied enough science to understand the logic behind "Machiavellian" schemes, and because those are emotionally satisfying to him right now he may not have looked beyond that for other opposing arguments that might be just as reasonable. Its a misconception that these people are unemotional, it is just that they often have trouble identifying and expressing emotions. Some of his philosophy might result from anger or feelings of social problems. From speaking to individuals and reading, my understanding is that, unlike someone who is just afraid of people or contact, most people on the spectrum desperately want to experience social interaction, but they just aren't very good at it. It would help to know exactly what sort of opinions or philosophies you're worried about.

He probably is aware he is intelligent, which is frustrating when things don't work out, especially if he has problems with certain subjects in school. He may have been influenced in this by others who built that trait up as his "strength", while not explaining to him that things take work and his condition is going to cause problems no matter how bright he is.

Look out for yourself too. His condition is not an excuse for him to hurt you. You should probably just ask him to not talk about whatever offends you, without claiming that either one of you is right or wrong. Explain that his opinions offend you even if he is "right" or "correct" and that you want to hang out, but aren't going to talk about that. I'd be nice, but pretty firm with that one.

I have a couple of freinds who have psychological problems and whilst I do what I can to support them I don't feel that it is my responsability to make sure that they are getting the most out of life.
I think it is admirable that you want to do all that you can for your friend, but this shouldn't be to the detriment of your own life. Do not get drawn into the situation where you are fulfilling the role which his parents and family no longer want (putting him up and lending him money)
What doesn't seem to help his situation is that he is not acknowledging his condition and recognising that his behaviour can cause upset to others, until he accepts this for himself he wont ever be able to move on. This will only come with life experience.
The best thing you can do is be there to listen and offer straight forward honest advice, beyond that you need to let him stand on his own two feet, learn from experience and if neccesary get some professional help.

mattyrm wrote:He sounds like a dick to me mate, id go get some new friends.

Yes, but he has a diagnosed condition that causes him to be that way, so you can' blame him for that.

Really, I don't know what you can do about it, you can't change him, just let it be I guess.

mattyrm wrote:He sounds like a dick to me mate, id go get some new friends.

He got aspergers not TFG

A good talking to probably won't work.
It is top notch of you to be concerned about his future Cheese.
It is a hard one and the best course of action would be to contact a support group for the condition.
There are a few if you do a google search.

They will be able to offer the best advise on how to proceed.
If he has good mates to help he will get by just fine.
HTH

Aspergers is a really nasty form of autism, and there isnt a way to change him tbh.

As for advice I honestly dont know, some people with Aspegers make decent livings, however most of them lack the people skills to do well.

And yeah the comment about him being a dick... He has a mental illness, he doesnt know and/or understand that his actions are wrong etc..

From my point of view, you're doing the right thing for a start by just being a good friend and trying to understand how difficult his condition will be as you both age, all you can do (as you can't change him) is to continue to be a good friend and provide support when and where necessary, be it in the form of enlightening people who were/are unaware of his condition or gently informing your friend when he's said/done something that may be construed as socially unacceptable/rude, one thing you must'nt do though is try and live his life for him, we all make mistakes and have difficulties in life, but in the end we can only look after ourselves, having a good friend around through tough times who can grow with you is a priceless thing to have and a better thing to have than someone who tries to 'correct' what is wrong when it can't be changed, I honestly wish you all the best with your friend, these types of things are quite challenging especially when you're 16, good luck, just be a good friend.

I had a friend with Aspergers in High school.

Unluckily for him, he was also a rampant pothead AND a manic depressive with scizophrenic tendencies.

This combination of things means he is no longer:
a.) a friend of mine.
B.) Amongst the living.

Your mates are going to change.
I don't see any of the guys I was friends with in High school (but most of them are dead now and I live in a different city).

All of my friends were people I met after school while an adult.

Just try and be a mate to him, I guess. Offer advice when he asks, offer support when he needs it (up to a point, don't facilitate more drama by always dropping everything to help him out).

Hmm, very deep answers there everyone. I'm always suprised by some of the responses I read on here when serious questions are raised...If I might add my two cents cheese.

Just like everyone else has already said, friends don't last forever. I'm the same, I only have three good mates from my school days, the rest all fell by the wayside for various reasons although at the time I stressed about all of thier needs over my own and honestly, none of them really cared that much about me. So, worry a bit more about yourself, than what you can change in your friends lives. That way, when you're friend really needs your help and asks for it, you're in a place where you can provide it, rather than being burnt out by worrying about something you can't really change.

That sounds pretty harsh, but as you get older you begin to see things a bit differently, and sometimes the best thing a friend can do is just be a friend and not a parent.

Good luck mate, it doesn't sound like its an easy situation, but there is a bright side here...at least he's not one of those weird wargamers...

This part...

Cheese Elemental wrote:I worry about what he's going to do when he leaves home. He overestimates his own abilities and acts quite coldly towards people he isn't familiar with, so he's going to be a fish out of water. His parents understand his condition, but don't want him hanging around the home once he reaches adulthood (they're a business family).

What am I supposed to do, Dakka? He's one of my few childhood friends (and vice versa) and I can't just leave him hanging, but he's reluctant to try and change.

Limits your options in this situation by a very significant amount. You can't do much of anything, it is more how you don't do anything that matters. If you can't stand hanging out with the guy, just stop hanging out. I can totally understand why that would seem difficult but you seem to have few ways to go about doing anything about it. It doesn't make you a bad person for thinking about your friends. Figuring out how much you can invest in ANY relationship is very important, friends are no exception.

You can't change people, they are limited by what they can accomplish in the first place and the manner in which they go about facing life. It is unfortunate that some are emotionally blind, as well as socially dysfunctional. You need to think about your future, not your friends. Life is kind of depressing from time to time, that is no reason to roll around in razor-wire relationships.

ShivanAngel wrote:Aspergers is a really nasty form of autism, and there isnt a way to change him tbh.

Aspergers is autism-lite, not a nasty form.

As for advice I honestly dont know, some people with Aspegers make decent livings, however most of them lack the people skills to do well.

Which is why there are so many of them in Silicon Valley, Aspies do better with technical fields. It also helps they tend to have above average intelligence.

And yeah the comment about him being a dick... He has a mental illness, he doesnt know and/or understand that his actions are wrong etc..

Doing things outside of the social norm is not the same as being wrong. Now, this particular individual may be doing things that are wrong, but it's not like Aspies are sociopaths, they just have difficulty reading the emotions of most people. This is NOT the same thing as not having any empathy.

Wow, thanks for all the postive input, guys. He doesn't like man-to-man talks much because he doesn't like to acknowledge his problems, but I hope he'll open up when he comes to terms with them.

That has to be one of the most pervasive traits I've encountered with ASD, is being even more unable than others to confront their own faults or a failure to meet responsibilities. Evasion, lying, weak-voice, every single trick in the book will come out and then they'll try to shift the blame. So annoying

Wish you all the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrexasaur wrote: Figuring out how much you can invest in ANY relationship is very important, friends are no exception.

I missed this post while typing a PM, and I have to say it's one of the hardest life lessons I've learnt but true for every single interaction one has.

ShivanAngel wrote:Aspergers is a really nasty form of autism, and there isnt a way to change him tbh.

As for advice I honestly dont know, some people with Aspegers make decent livings, however most of them lack the people skills to do well.

And yeah the comment about him being a dick... He has a mental illness, he doesnt know and/or understand that his actions are wrong etc..

He does have an illness, and he can't wish himself out of that illness any more than anything else, but there are some things that need to be brought up. For one, Aspergers, autism, and other conditions aren't considered mental illnesses, but rather they're "developmental disorders", although people with this apparently often have other mental illnesses or developmental disorders at the same time.

As far as I know from my reading, people with Aspergers aren't good at picking up social cues, body language, and other such things, but they're capable of understanding morals and ethics. For instance, if he is intrusive or says something that "normal" people would have known to be inappropriate in the situation, then that is part of his struggle and you can accommodate that. However, there is a world of difference between insensitivity and brusqueness and deliberate nastiness. My understanding is that any "high functioning" autistic by definition has a normal or higher IQ, so while this individual will always struggle with the social world, I would think he is certainly capable of *intellectually* understanding that you can deliberately hurt people or be nasty with words.

His condition is no excuse for being abusive. It would help to know something about what was said or done. I think you should probably be able to tell the difference, if you stop and think about it, between social gaffes or insensitivity and deliberate malice.

Also, this individual might well have opinions or political views that you find offensive. Plenty of "normal" people might hold those same views you find offensive. If that is the case, you can either choose to disagree but still value his friendship ( that is the case with plenty of people I know), or if you find his views so offensive you can't deal with it, you're just going to have to end the friendship. I don't think that has anything to do with his condition; as you would have to make the same choices with pretty much any human being.

The fact that you've asked for advice in a forum means you're concerned for his well being. You have to look out for yourself though, and you can't cause yourself harm because of someone's behaviour. Even if something is hurting you that is caused by his illness, you might just have to choose not to deal with it for your own good.

Good post Gringard
In my experience with Aspergers, there has been very little if any abusive traits. Am hard pushed to recall any.
That doesn't mean to say it can't happen but it seems rare.

Usually Aspergers means that there are a few interests the person obsesses about. Political views doesn't top the list. iirc abstract reasoning is very difficult and most autistics have difficulties with anything other than literal thinking.
It could well be he is parroting something he has picked up.

The parents are probably the ones that need a jolly good talking too, Cheese. While it is good that your friend should be as independent as possible there should be a safety net available until he can become acclimatised.

He probably doesn't get sarcasm. Also it helps to know if something has set him off. As he could arrive in a mood and you wouldn't know why and it wouldn't be your fault

Grignard said what I was trying to more eloquently. except I also have personal experience with Aspies.

And this is especially correct

Grignard wrote:As far as I know from my reading, people with Aspergers aren't good at picking up social cues, body language, and other such things, but they're capable of understanding morals and ethics. For instance, if he is intrusive or says something that "normal" people would have known to be inappropriate in the situation, then that is part of his struggle and you can accommodate that. However, there is a world of difference between insensitivity and brusqueness and deliberate nastiness. My understanding is that any "high functioning" autistic by definition has a normal or higher IQ, so while this individual will always struggle with the social world, I would think he is certainly capable of *intellectually* understanding that you can deliberately hurt people or be nasty with words.

As one who has Aspergers himself, I can pretty much confirm what Grignard has said.

It's not that big a deal. To be honest, I'm surprised your friend came to you and told you that he had Aspergers. I have a lot of trouble telling people about stuff like that, fearing their reaction.

But, as Grignard said, it is no excuse to be abusive. Since I have difficulty making friends already, such behavior for me is unthinkable. There must be something driving him to act as such.

@Phototoxin It is likely that he doesn't, but sarcasm is one of the few things us "Aspies" can learn to pick up in conversation.

Hmm, good on you mate, that's probably the best thing cheese needs there, advice from someone that actually has to deal with it themselves...hmm, that actually sounds sarcastic, but its not meant to be!

Maybe also, what Nofasse says about how hard it is to tell other people about it is the important part there. If he has come to you and can admit to his..issues...problems...whatever...then that's a good indicator that he wants the help you can provide. Use that thought if you ever do confront him about it, that he cares enough about what you think of him to open up to you.

@ Nofasse...'Aspies' And you say you don't pick up on sarcasm?!