Runepriest and Thunderwolves

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**Jpr**

Hi,

Am I right in assuming that runepriests can freely join TWC units? How about TWC units with a TWC lord inside?

The thunderwolf mount rules state that a lord can only join fenrisian wolves or TWC, but it doesn't say anything about non TW mounted guys joining TW units?

Is there something I've missed here?

**Gwar!**

Nope, you haven't missed anything.

Why you would want to halve your TWC's Assault Move and stop them being Fleet, I do not know, but you certainly can do so.

As for a Non TWM IC joining a TWC unit with a TWM IC already in it (or vice versa), the rules do not sufficiently cover this situation and you have to make a House rule.

I personally think that a "Unit of TWC with a Rune Priest" is not the same as a "Unit of TWC", so the Lord will not be permitted to join them. Likewise for the Priest, as he cannot be joined by the Wolf Lord.

**Brother Ramses**

You also have Canis that does not have TWM as a wargear listing and therefore is not bound by the restriction of what units they can or cannot join.

As I have said on another board, I wouldn't be the browneye that expected everyone to believe I was proposing that Canis or TWC are not bound by the TWM rule.

**Ordo Dakka**

I don't think Canis is meant to be.

**Brother Ramses**

By that standard then, neither are TWC.

**ChrisCP**

? I can't find anywhere in the SW codex that a TWM is listed under a wargear entry...

**Brother Ramses**

pg 62, Upgrades and Other Equipment:

Thunderwolf Mount

If you want to say that it is only Upgrades and Other Equipment section, look at the bottom of the page for what section it falls under.

"Space Wolves Wargear"

**Gwar!**

Brother Ramses wrote:You also have Canis that does not have TWM as a wargear listing and therefore is not bound by the restriction of what units they can or cannot join.

As I have said on another board, I wouldn't be the browneye that expected everyone to believe I was proposing that Canis or TWC are not bound by the TWM rule.

Canis is a lovely grab bag of fail. He isn't a TWM, and his Rending special rule is useless too.

**Brother Ramses**

Gwar! wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:You also have Canis that does not have TWM as a wargear listing and therefore is not bound by the restriction of what units they can or cannot join.

As I have said on another board, I wouldn't be the browneye that expected everyone to believe I was proposing that Canis or TWC are not bound by the TWM rule.
Canis is a lovely grab bag of fail. He isn't a TWM, and his Rending special rule is useless too.

I think he should have just been an upgrade character like Arjac except for TWC.

**ChrisCP**

Brother Ramses wrote:pg 62, Upgrades and Other Equipment:

Thunderwolf Mount

If you want to say that it is only Upgrades and Other Equipment section, look at the bottom of the page for what section it falls under.

"Space Wolves Wargear"

Yeah naturally of course, but, where can you find a TWM as a wargear entry?

**streamdragon**

Gwar! wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:You also have Canis that does not have TWM as a wargear listing and therefore is not bound by the restriction of what units they can or cannot join.

As I have said on another board, I wouldn't be the browneye that expected everyone to believe I was proposing that Canis or TWC are not bound by the TWM rule.
Canis is a lovely grab bag of fail. He isn't a TWM, and his Rending special rule is useless too.

? Does Fangir's entry not count him as a Thunderwolf?

Fangir: Fangir is a monstrous Thunderwolf, as strong as a mastadon blah de blah de blah. Canis has an improved profile blah de blah de balah. The characteristics bonuses are included in his profile above.

blah de blah de blah ed for brevity

Guess I'm missing something.

**nosferatu1001**

He isnt a thunderwolf MOUNT, however.

**Brother Ramses**

nosferatu1001 wrote:He isnt a thunderwolf MOUNT, however.

^

I posted this up in the same rules debate on another board:

As much as some of you want to apply the TWM rule to ONLY when a TWM actively joins a unit, that is a false assumption. It applies to both joining and when being joined. Case in point, Iron Priest on a TWM.

An Iron Priest on a TWM is not an IC. He can never join a unit. However he is on a TWM and is bound by the rules for a TWM. For the game not to break and for you not to break the TWM rule, it must apply to actively joining AND being joined by only the specific units in the TWM rule.

An Iron Priest on a TWM cannot join a Wolf Lord on a TWM because he is not an independent character. However a Wolf Lord on a TWM can join an Iron Priest on a TWM. He (the WL) is an independent character and the Iron Priest is on a TWM thus satisfying his (WL) own TWM rule. The Iron Priest can be joined by the Wolf Lord because the Wolf Lord is an IC AND on a TWM, thus fulfilling his (IP) own TWM rule.

People have gotten caught up with the rule and applying it to when an IC is mounted on a TWM forgetting that the rule must also apply to a Iron Priest mounted on a TWM. Hence the restriction to only being able to join certain units encompasses joining and being joined, not just the game mechanic of an IC joining a unit.

**PagingMrHerman**

Let's say that you have an IC with a TWM join a unit of TWC.

Using the logic above, another IC with a TWM cannot join the unit because there's a model in the unit that is neither a TWC or Fenrisian Wolf.

A unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves does not change if an IC joins it. It's still a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. No rule says otherwise.

**Gwar!**

Except the rule that says that the IC counts as part of the unit, so it is not longer just a TWC unit anymore, it is a TWC with IC on TWM unit.

The Check to see if he can join is not continuously done, it is only done just before he joins, so your "example" of logic is incorrect.

**PagingMrHerman**

Gwar, can two lords with TWM be attached to a unit of Fenrisian Wolves?

**Gwar!**

PagingMrHerman wrote:Gwar, can two lords with TWM be attached to a unit of Fenrisian Wolves?

No, because when the 2nd wolf lord tried to join, the rules check to see if the unit he is Joining is a TWC unit or a Fenrisian Wolf Unit. It isn't, so the 2nd Wolf Lord cannot join it.

That is the RaW, in any case.

**PagingMrHerman**

It's RaW if your personal opinion is correct. I can't find a rule where when an IC joins a unit, the unit is not longer the base unit. Everything I've read talks about it being combined except in assaults.

**Gwar!**

PagingMrHerman wrote:It's RaW if your personal opinion is correct.

Actually, if you lurked moar, you would know I never take a personal side in rules debates. I always argue the rules objectively.

I can't find a rule where when an IC joins a unit, the unit is not longer the base unit. Everything I've read talks about it being combined except in assaults.

The bolded bit is kind of the point. If they are combined, then the unit isn't just the base unit anymore. I never said it stops being the base unit, I said it also becomes Base Unit+Something else, which is not equal to Base unit.

If you have 5 Oranges in a basket, and then add a pear, do you still have a Basket of Only Oranges?

**PagingMrHerman**

Gwar! wrote:Actually, if you lurked moar, you would know I never take a personal side in rules debates. I always argue the rules objectively.

Actually, I was referring to your first post in this thread. Is this not your personal opinion?

Gwar! wrote:I personally think that a "Unit of TWC with a Rune Priest" is not the same as a "Unit of TWC", so the Lord will not be permitted to join them. Likewise for the Priest, as he cannot be joined by the Wolf Lord.

Gwar! wrote:The bolded bit is kind of the point. If they are combined, then the unit isn't just the base unit anymore. I never said it stops being the base unit, I said it also becomes Base Unit+Something else, which is not equal to Base unit.

If you have 5 Oranges in a basket, and then add a pear, do you still have a Basket of Only Oranges?

I see what you're saying, but this isn't spelled out in the rulebook as you describe.

**Gwar!**

My Personal opinion yes. My Personal opinion clouding the rules debate? No.

The first part of my post is what the rules say. The 2nd part was my suggestion for a house rule.

**Brother Ramses**

Considering that the IC now counts as part of the unit, you cannot selectively say that the WP is only joining the Fenrisian wolves, and not the IC on a TWM with the Fenrisian wolves.

Gwar, what about the Iron Priest on a TWM? I am going to chock it up to crappy rules writing on GW part that has led people to assume that the "join" part of the TWM rule only applies to the prescribed act of an IC joining a unit per the BRB.

However, a Iron Priest is not a IC. He can never join a unit except whenjoined by an IC which at time the TWM rule would make sense if "join" is all encompassing to include join or be joined. Any other interpretation would mean that the Iron Priest is on a TWM and allowed to be joined by any and anyone to which there is no exception noted for the Iron Priest entry nor his TWM entry.

**Gwar!**

An Iron Priest cannot ever be joined by an IC with a TWM, because even if the Iron Priest is on a TWM, he is not a unit of TWC or a Fenrisian Wolf unit.

**Brother Ramses**

Well that is given per RAW along the same lines that Canis is not on a TWM, TWC are not on TWM, Doom of Malantai is not a Zoanthrope, Swarmlord is not a Hive Tyrant, and Old One Eye is not a carnifex.

**PagingMrHerman**

I was confused by the RaW comments when personal opinions/house rules were involved.

RaW, it is not illegal for a non-TWM IC to join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or TWC that already has an IC with a TWM attached.

RaW, it is not illegal for multiple ICs with TWMs to join the same Fenrisian Wolves or TWC unit.

In order to rule that they're illegal, you must first define what a unit is called when an IC joins it, and the rulebook does not do this.

**Mahtamori**

Brother Ramses wrote:Well that is given per RAW along the same lines that Canis is not on a TWM, TWC are not on TWM, Doom of Malantai is not a Zoanthrope, Swarmlord is not a Hive Tyrant, and Old One Eye is not a carnifex.

Off topic, but check the GW FAQ for Tyranids regarding their special creatures. It's an accepted source of RAW as per YMDC guidelines.

Spoiler:

Edit: yeah, they're off the hook

As I wrote, it's off topic. I have no clue what TWC is, so I'll just keep my replies in this thread to an absolute minimum.

**Brother Ramses**

Mahtamori wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:Well that is given per RAW along the same lines that Canis is not on a TWM, TWC are not on TWM, Doom of Malantai is not a Zoanthrope, Swarmlord is not a Hive Tyrant, and Old One Eye is not a carnifex.

Off topic, but check the GW FAQ for Tyranids regarding their special creatures. It's an accepted source of RAW as per YMDC guidelines.

Spoiler:

Q: Tyranid Special Characters. Are Tyranid Special
Characters considered to be special versions of the
standard creatures of their type for the purposes of
using psychic powers, biomorphs and special rules? For
example, is the Swarmlord considered to be a Hive
Tyrant for the purposes of using Hive Tyrant psychic
powers? Similarly, is Deathleaper considered to be a
Lictor for the purposes of Chameleonic Skin and
Pheromone Trail, is the Doom of Malan’tai considered
to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field, is
Old One Eye considered to be Carnifex for the
purposes of Living Battering Ram and are Ymgarl
Genestealers considered to be Genestealers for the
purposes of Brood Telepathy?
A. Yes in all cases.

Well then the Nid's now get off the hook on that one. However the argument was the same and still applies for Canis and TWC lacking any FAQ to the contrary. Canis does not have a TWM, he has Fangir. TWC do not have TWM, they have something not defined.

**Jpr**

Gwar! wrote:Nope, you haven't missed anything.

Why you would want to halve your TWC's Assault Move and stop them being Fleet, I do not know, but you certainly can do so..

I normally add my Runepriest to the TWC for the 1st few turns to give them LD 10 and another wound allocation point (I give him runic armour), and then he breaks off and the TWC go off and do their stuff.