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Title says it all, how do you kill those pesky kitted out eldar vehicles that reduce str to 8 and ignore melta and stuff like that with IG, barring autocannons, which I lack both in the form of HWTs, Leman Russ and Hydra.

Lascannons work nicely (on Vendettas, or on Sentinels, perhaps?), but the bottom line is that if you need to kill a skimmer, the Hydra has no rival.

Yeh, but penetrating armour 12 with str 7 is a bheech.

It is difficult. That's why Autocannons are Heavy 2 and are dirt cheap. Something you might consider are Grenade Launchers, which may seem ridiculous, but consider a couple of things:

1. Grenade Launchers do not cost more than the Guardsmen carrying them
2. Grenade Launchers have a Frag round for dealing with dismounted infantry
3. Grenade Launchers are 24" range Assault weapons, making you much more mobile.
4. Eldar vehicles can be destroyed if Immobilized while moving Flat Out, or if sufficient Damage results are obtained.
5. They're cheap and plentiful from a modelling point of view. Think of how many Special Weapon Teams you can field.

Other than resorting to a hydra, there are a few ways I've taken them down.

One way is with meltaguns. Yes, I know they don't get their special melta whatever, but it's still a S8 shot against AV12. Throw in BiD across a couple of squads filled with meltaguns, and you start doing damage. Of course, if they don't come within 12", then they're useless, but few people take eldar skimmers for the firepower...

Another way is with priests. Serpent shields don't stop the +1D6, and you get to reroll to hit, which means a priest still has a reasonable chance to hit it with 3 attacks, even on a 6 to hit. Plus, you're resolving against rear armor. If you can hit it once in 6 die rolls, you've basically got a penetrated vehicle.

Another way is with meltabombs. If you position troops in such a way where your opponent has no choice but to tank shock you (say, you're sitting on an objective), then you get to death or glory with meltabombs. Once again, this is basically a free penetrating hit. Also, sometimes your opponent will just get foolishly close. This especially works well with a priest who gives the bombs rerolls.

Finally, though I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, depending on the circumstances, you can use rough riders. Once again we're talking about a HUGE number of attacks that ignore shields and attack rear armor. Even with a 6 to hit, 21 attacks is probably going to do something.

Can't guard also take missile launchers? Sure it costs more than auto cannons, but it fits the bill and still is cheaper than the SM or eldar versions.

True, but recall the limitations of the original post: he doesn't have any Heavy Weapon Teams on which to mount those Missile Launchers. There's also no Missile Launcher equivalent to the Hydra or the Leman Russ Exterminator.

I've had some luck with BID and loads of GL's or Missile Launchers... Mostly because I happened to have so many Missile Teams, but they're not too bad when you get the TL effect of the order... PCS with 4 GL's as a sort of "mobile reserve" is pretty decent too as Nurglitch mentioned above... With the additional bonus for the few multi wound things in the Eldar force, Str 6 is enough to insta-kill... Minor thing, but it was always amusing to see Farseers go "oops, I failed a save"... PCS w/ Commisar (keep the LD high for the BID order) and 4 GL's can sometimes bounce a Wave Serpent around, at least stunning it... And even if not, it's an amusing little squad...

Ailaros, I DO actually play the Eldar skimmers for the firepower, but I play a lot differently than the other Eldar players locally :-) And it's been quite a while since last I broke them out...

Heres a thought, use a Leman Russ Vanquisher, you get the 2D6 Armour Pen and you can do it from more then half the table away and with Pask you get Bs 4 and you add 1+ on the Armour pen so no matter what your gonna get through their armour

... unless you're shooting a wave serpent, which both strips you of the 2D6 and clears away the ordnance special rule. Oh, and it doesn't ignore cover from SMF. The vanq is a pretty terrible way to take down skimmers. That you have to spend roughly 200 points for the privilege with Pask doesn't help.

I'm really curious where this idea of GLs against elder skimmers comes from. Seriously, S6 weapon, AV12 front armor, SMF. What do you really expect to do to the vehicle?

Ailaros wrote:
I'm really curious where this idea of GLs against elder skimmers comes from. Seriously, S6 weapon, AV12 front armor, SMF. What do you really expect to do to the vehicle?

In general, I don't have to kill it, stunning it works pretty well... 4 twin linked shots gets me a decent chance for a 6 on the armor roll. :-) It is a bit psychological warfare, I've gotten lucky a few times, so the local Eldar lads tend to be more cautious... Besides, an Eldar skimmer standing still usually dies in the next turn with no movement, cover saves, etc... Is it the best solution? No, but it can work...

pchappel wrote:It is a bit psychological warfare, I've gotten lucky a few times, so the local Eldar lads tend to be more cautious...

And that's pretty much all it is.

4 TL GL's get 3 hits, which get .5 glances, which gets made .25 due to SMF. If all you care about is stunning (which is a little dubious, but I'll go along) then you only do that half the time (the other half being shakens), now you're looking at .125.

Put another way, using BiD on 4 GLs against an eldar skimmer stuns it or worse only 1 in 8 times you try it. If an elder player flinches away from this, he deserves whatever comes to him.

Course, I've yet to see an Eldar skimmer wihtout their version of Extra Armor, so going for stuns ususally doesn't work.

By the time the GL's are in range, I'm usually seeing them move in the 6-12" range, not 12+ for the save since they're usually shooting... :-) Mind, I didn't say that was my preferred method, just staying within the constraints listed by the original poster. Yes, I take the shots, because faced with the Eldar Mech forces I typically see, it's not like there's anything else TO shoot at... Stunning isn't the preferred result, but it is a fairly positive one forcing the Eldar to either react to save the vehicle or write it off if it ended up too close to my lines... And of course, there's the destroyed result on the roll of a 6 for the glance if it did go fast... Maybe I'm throwing a LOT of str 6 shots at them, but I do see them go down a lot to the multi lasers and GL's...

You folks actually see the spirit stones a lot out there? Apparently it doesn't fit into the locals lists, but I honestly can't say I've ever seen them

Jaon wrote:Title says it all, how do you kill those pesky kitted out eldar vehicles that reduce str to 8 and ignore melta and stuff like that with IG, barring autocannons, which I lack both in the form of HWTs, Leman Russ and Hydra.

Do some mathahmmering to find out the best weapon.

http://www.simhammer.com/node/7


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:One way is with meltaguns. Yes, I know they don't get their special melta whatever, but it's still a S8 shot against AV12.

The other thing is that melta guns are AP1, which increases the damage roll by 1. This has a significant increase in the number of destructions of AV 12 targets, increasing it from a ~5.52% to destroy to a ~9.76%

To test this, compare a melta gun vs a krak missile at a wave serpent.

@pchappel

You wont see any stunned eldar transport tank. They always have spirit stones.

@topic

I think it can be reduced to how to kill serpents.

I use stormtroopers to drive around their flank and shoot them into rear armour with meltaguns and burn the passengers with the chimera hull-flamer.
Otherwise I stay out of 6" with melta chims and melta it into them with normal S8. AP1 is just essential for the killing effect, so a penned flat out serpent goes down on 3+
Actually I am glad, when Serpents go close to me early. Serpents are last turn winners due to their flat out tank shock thing...
And if they stay hidden, I must drive up to him, which exposes some side armour for shuricannonshots and I will lose the distance firefight.
ACs are very ineffective vs AV12, so Hydras have better targets (Rhinos, Tazors, Trukks). They are decent but surely not killy against serpents (and there is other cover than just the flat out one if you have at least little mind as an eldar player...)
Vendettas are very good too. The mass of shots will make it through cover.
Sometimes if I get ACs into their rear (scout sentinels) they can make it too.

But always remember: The guy who disembarks first, loses the fight. As a guard you always win vehicle close quarter fight vs eldar. You only lose to councils and last turn serpent claims...

Do not shoot down my precious skimmers in my mech army.

Well, I played several times vs IG and units of foot have a hard time to penetrate my Serpents.
Vendettas have better chances, but I'll target them at first sight.
Then I fly circles around your IG army and shoot it at leisure.
Never lost vs Tau, IG, or whatnot.

Mecheldar are indeed difficult to handle if they are played patiently. Becuase you cannot really hurt them, but you HAVE to hurt them, because otherwise they fly over and secure the win in 2 turns...

Vanquishers isn't ordanance and how does it take away the 2D6?

Use lascannons on orders. reroll missed hits or force reroll on cover.

dont forget melta-bombs work vs serpents in HtH. The energy shield does not work if you are within HtH or rear of the vehicle.

I suggest assault with a scouting vendetta and demo vets.

Riddick40k wrote:Vanquishers isn't ordanance and how does it take away the 2D6?

Wave Serpent's energy shield rules specify that Str tops out at 8 and nothing rolls more than +1d6 for armor pen...

MLs w/ either BiD or FoMT (for the SMF cover re-rolls) work well. This way your S isn't dropped and you maximise the chances of something going through.

My advice would be to buy some heavy weapons teams. Or Hydras. Restricting your army of these two things will make most Eldar armies fly rings around you even more so than they usually would, and running after skimmers with a meltagun isn't much fun...

L. Wrex

You playing a Mech list?

Your best bet is probably Vendettas with 3 TL Las cannons even if they are strength 8 they are TL and you have 3 of them. Problem with Vendettas is the Eldar are probably gunning for them and they get shaken or blown up rather easily.

Manticores ordinance take the highest of 2d6 still works but is reduced to Strength 8. You do still get d3 shots. Russes also get the take the highest of 2d6 with their ordinace.

Veterans with a Las cannon in a Chimera are not bad as they provide another anti tank shot that isn't on a high priority target like a Vendetta and you have to camp your objective with something.

I don't like heavy weapons teams cause high chance of failing orders on ld7 or running away when you lose one.

meltabombs don't really work because if Mech Eldar doesn't get first turn they will just reserve everything and keep moving 12 inches.

You really have to kill the fire dragons serpents as they are bad news for your vehicles if they get close although hull mounted heavy flamers gets rid of them so keep your vehicles together

Chimera multi lasers can stop their wave serpent bright lances or missles from shooting which is just great because they don't have that many of them.

Ordnance doesn't take 2d6 pick highest against serpents. The best you can manage is S8+1d6, plus the Ap1 bonus if you're shooting meltas. Within these restrictions a good question would be what do you have access to.

Kirika wrote:Manticores ordinance take the highest of 2d6 still works but is reduced to Strength 8.

Except that it doesn't.

Kirika wrote:meltabombs don't really work because if Mech Eldar doesn't get first turn they will just reserve everything and keep moving 12 inches.

Right, with meltabombs you sort of need two of three different things going for you:

- massive field coverage
- priests
- something that makes him tank shock

Obviously, all of these three are much easier to accomplish with infantry horde lists, especially when there's outflanking afoot. That said, it's still possible to use meltabombs on stuff, especially with regards to preventing getting tank shocked in late turns or against vehicles you're stunned or immobilized.

Not the best solution with a mech list, but, honestly, the best solution by far with a mech list is hydras. That or have some other major theme handle them (like vendettas in air cav, for example).

That or use mechvets and drown them in BS4 plasma.

Probably not cost effective and perhaps a bit too aggressive for some folks, but Storm Troopers deep striking into the rear arc of a Serpent is something I've done a few times to good effect (Yes, I play BA too)... Melta works from the rear arc, but they'll likely still get the cover save if they moved fast...

My bad about the ordinace I thought it worked cause it wasn't adding a d6. Guess it doesn't.

Outflanking Vendettas and having them come on from the back opponents corners for potential back shots might work if he has first turn.

Las plas vets in a chimera are ok at shooting at wave serpents although they might stay outside of 24 unless they dropping fire dragons.

I haven't actually tried Hydras as I haven't gotten around to finishing building mine and I have a hard time fitting them in an all comers list.

Remember that vehicles are overall annoyingly hard to kill in 40k. Don't be surprised if it takes a few turns to make them open up like a girl on a prom date. ( dangers of drinking and posting)

That being said 3 TL LC in a vendetta wil put a serious cramp in the elders style. At the least, you can keep them shaken

labmouse42 wrote:Remember that vehicles are overall annoyingly hard to kill in 40k. Don't be surprised if it takes a few turns to make them open up like a girl on a prom date. ( dangers of drinking and posting)

That being said 3 TL LC in a vendetta wil put a serious cramp in the elders style. At the least, you can keep them shaken

I agree. I love the thing with the prom date too

What I see in this thread is an overarching love for the vendetta, which I think is one of the best tank hunting units in the game. Now if it could take 3 twin linked assault cannons....
Makes me want to collect blood angels *grumbles* (wait storm ravens can take ACs right?)

Welll thanks for the help guys. And also apart from scout moving out of a valk/ven, i dont expect anyone to be meltabombing a vehicle that can move 36 a turn. Not on my opponents watch.