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Can I move a Eldar Waveserpent forward 3( or 4) inches and then back 4( or 3) inches to gain a 4+ cover save?

I'm pretty sure no, the vehicle distanced is measured from to hull start position to hull end position. No running circles or doubling back for cover saves...I have been wrong before but I think that's the case

*edited for clarity

It is. And you have to had moved 24" to claim a cover save for just moving.

A skimmer only has to move over 12" (flat out) to get a cover save. Page 71, main rules

And this is on page 63, question is whether or not it also applies to shooting/cover saves.
Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!

Heh, I always thought it was 24, thanks.

Yes, you only need to move over 12" to claim a 4+ cover on a Serpent. Now if you can move in a circle or move forward backward is contestable since there is nothing stating you can't and only a note about movement and shooting that suggests otherwise. While it may be possible to claim it'll be looked at as a tFG move and in a tourney likely go to a judge's call potentially screwing you.

are you sure there isn't a rule about the distance from where the hull started and where it finishes? I'm almost sure that there is a specific rule about this very situation where it says you can't do it. and of course as everyone has mentioned you have to move 12" to get the flat out cover save.

I think this was addressed : You can't use the act of moving in circles /forward&backward. You need to actually move some distance form your original position to count as having moved. Pivoting doesn't count for moving (unless immobilized) but the hull must be measured from point A to point B. Not A to B and A again.

The distance moved bit is part of the assaulting a vehicle rules. I posted the exact quote in my earlier post. And like I said, the question is whether or not this also applies to the vehicle being shot at.

BlueDagger wrote:Yes, you only need to move over 12" to claim a 4+ cover on a Serpent. Now if you can move in a circle or move forward backward is contestable since there is nothing stating you can't and only a note about movement and shooting that suggests otherwise. While it may be possible to claim it'll be looked at as a tFG move and in a tourney likely go to a judge's call potentially screwing you.

Badandy wrote:are you sure there isn't a rule about the distance from where the hull started and where it finishes? I'm almost sure that there is a specific rule about this very situation where it says you can't do it. and of course as everyone has mentioned you have to move 12" to get the flat out cover save.

Guys.

Read don_mondo's first post.

He quote the rule that explicitly says you can't move forwards and backwards or in a circle and claim the cover save.

Pay attention, please. Threads do not revolve around your posts alone!

SaintHazard wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Yes, you only need to move over 12" to claim a 4+ cover on a Serpent. Now if you can move in a circle or move forward backward is contestable since there is nothing stating you can't and only a note about movement and shooting that suggests otherwise. While it may be possible to claim it'll be looked at as a tFG move and in a tourney likely go to a judge's call potentially screwing you.

Badandy wrote:are you sure there isn't a rule about the distance from where the hull started and where it finishes? I'm almost sure that there is a specific rule about this very situation where it says you can't do it. and of course as everyone has mentioned you have to move 12" to get the flat out cover save.

Guys.

Read don_mondo's first post.

He quote the rule that explicitly says you can't move forwards and backwards or in a circle and claim the cover save.

Pay attention, please. Threads do not revolve around your posts alone!

Please read the rulebook. That quote pertains to shooting and does not necessarily apply to cover save distance, as mondo even stated. There is no statement that says a vehicle must be over 12" from it's starting point to claim the cover save as that wording is only in the turbo boost rules.

Like I said it would come to a judge's call in a tournie setting and is viewed as a TFG move.

No, that's the problem. It doesn't explicictly say that and I didn't say it does. What it says is that if a vehicle is being assaulted, then you use actual distance moved to determine what is needed to hit the vehicle in the assault. Whether or not that rule transfers over to shooting is not stated. Note taht in both of my previous posts I mention that the question is whether or not this applies to shooting.

IMO, yes, I think it does. But that is opinion.

Oh, well, in that case I stand corrected.

Ok, let me try this. When shooting a vehicle, to get a cover save it needs to satisfy some condition. Usually it's the obscure rule. In the case of a moving fast save, you have to move x inches. I'd like to try using the rules concerning moving a vehicle being measured from hull to hull.
ex 1 Start......End (six dots six inches)
ex 2 Start...forward (up 3)
End...Back (back 2)

Measuring from the same hull point shows a movement of 0 inches. I'm thinking plain terrain, just going straight. This gets messed up if your trying to avoid difficult/dangerous terrain and zig zagging though

*edit for clarity

mrwhoop wrote:Ok, let me try this. When shooting a vehicle, to get a cover save it needs to satisfy some condition. Usually it's the obscure rule. In the case of a moving fast save, you have to move x inches. I'd like to try using the rules concerning moving a vehicle being measured from hull to hull.
ex 1 Start......End (six dots six inches)
ex 2 Start...forward (up 3)
End...Back (back 2)

Measuring from the same hull point shows a movement of 0 inches. I'm thinking plain terrain, just going straight. This gets messed up if your trying to avoid difficult/dangerous terrain and zig zagging though

*edit for clarity

Not sure what you were going for here, but no there is nothing that states that to claim a bonus you must end up over 12" away from the starting point hull to hull. The cover save for fast skimmers mere states that you must move 12" and it is not stated anywhere that that movement can not be in a circle landing at the original point or that you can't move forward and backward adding up to over 12". It is just an assumed fact, that most will agree with, based off the passage mentioned above and the turbo-boost rules.

Most people get the fast skimmer cover rules confused with the turbo-boost USR rules that specifically state you must be x number of inches from your starting point.

To clarify I'm going even further back to Movement. You measure movement from base to base on the figures and hull to hull on vehicles. The book's not on me but I was thinking that the rules for movement require you measure distance. If you move back to your starting point you haven't really moved. Specifically I'm thinking the page with the diagram that shows you don't measure from the front of the hull and place the model in front of the inches moved.

I thought there was something there and when I get ahold of my book I'll try and find what page/entry I'm thinking of.

Correct but this differs with vechiles ans you move a vehicle straight forward then pivot any number of times along the path. so if you move forward 4" turn 90 degrees and repeat till you end up in the same location you have indeed moved 16" though you are no further then your starting difference.

This differs from infantry when you measure x number of inches out and place the model at it's new location. The reason you see most people just place the vehicle in the new location is because it is tedious and time consuming to vroom your vehicle across the board.

Unfortunately, RAW says that you can move forwards 6.1" and back 6.1" and qualify for a flat-out cover save.

However, as per the note in Rolling to hit against vehicles on P63 the vehicle would count as stationary for purposes of being assaulted.

This is definitely not how I'd play it.

Ok I was combining two pages...pg 12 has the 'proper way' to measure the distance picture I was thinking about and on pg 71 Measuring Distances talks about "As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull..."

Asking the questions in reference to moving forward and back was to keep it simple. Like all things, there's a way to make it murky and a way to keep it clear.

So again, moving forward 6 and back 7 (or vice versa ) doesnt seem to prevent me from being assaulted as a standstill, but does allot a 4+ coversave, since we couldn't find a rule elsewhere that stated otherwise?

It's a odd situation anyways unless you have troops objective camping, as not often will a skimmer move fast enough to not allow primary weapons so it can fire a Str 4 S-Cat with a sorry range.

Vehicles are allowed to turn any number of times they want, with no limitations to it's total allowed movement distance, "just like normal models". I fail to find anything which states that moving back again has any effects on the speed at which the tank moves.

For instance, imagine a tank rounding a wide boulder. The path around it is 17", but a skimmer could move across it in mere 6" move (normal vehicle and a skimmer has exactly the same rules for measuring distance when moving). If the rules did say you had to measure from point A to point B, then the tank would move 17" and still be allowed to shoot all weapons.

You could make a house rule, of course, which said "you have to move the shortest distance possible, unless this would needlessly put your vehicle in danger", but that's not something I can find in the rules.

The assault lines may simply be the reasoning that the vehicle wouldn't be zooming past at high speed, but you'd get several chances to get it right, so to speak. Or it might just be GW's way of limiting abuse of the turning rules. Keep in mind that moving flat out has drawbacks, especially if it's a skimmer!

While RAW does not really say one way or another, I would play it under the same rules for assaulting on P.63 under rolling to hit against vehicles: "Note when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from the original position. moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help"

thats my take on it.

i'm really surprised Gwar hasnt stepped in? This is something i'm still curious about and dont quite get

kanelom wrote:i'm really surprised Gwar hasnt stepped in? This is something i'm still curious about and dont quite get

I try and avoid questions when they have been answered correctly already.

As Don_mondo pointed out, you can technically go 6" forwards then 6.1" back to claim a cover save (though you would be hit on a 4+ in an assault).

Is it "fair"? Who knows, but the rules are pretty solid imo.