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HQ- Company Command Squad- Plasma Guns (4), Chimera- 165*
Elite-Psyker Battle Squad- Additional Sanctioned Psykers (5), Chimera- 165
Elite- Guardsman Marbo- 65
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155*
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Sniper Rifle (3), Gunnery Sergeant Harker, Heavy Bolter-150*
Troop-Platoon Command Squad- Flamers (4), Chimera- 105
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support- Manticore- 160

For 2000 point games add:
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Commissar- 100
---------Infantry Squad- 50
* denotes units I already have; I'd prefer that they stay in some way, shape, or form.

The Russ, Manticore, PSB, and platoon make a firebase in my deployment zone. The MechVets go with the CCS to capture objectives. The sniper vets infiltrate off to a side with clear LoS and inflict wounds for pinning. Marbo gets to play hot potato with the enemy. The stock Infantry Squad is for sacrifice (bubblewrapping, DoW hijinks, etc.).

Comments and criticism are appreciated.

Wish there was a medic with the CCS. and I usually like Harker being mobile (in a chimera especially) but I can see your plan. imo not bad

Looks solid, man. 70 infantry with 55 scoring squishies, 10 vehicles, some mobility, plenty of pie (as in lots).

Instead of the vox network, I'd add a commissar to the infantry platoon. A stubborn blob has many uses, and it looks like your list could use one for holding home objectives. You'll be tempted to use blob for some battles, and with 4 squads you'll have lots of options for size depending on the tactical situation.

Tell us how it goes!

Replacing the Voxes with a Commissar requires an extra 15 points. I could take the AC/GL from the fourth infantry squad and use them for sacrificial purposes. I'mma go ahead and update the OP for that.

Solid list, but I don't approve of leman russ squadrons. I would lose 2 of the tanks and take 2 FA choices (hellhound or valkyrie variants) instead. Apart from that, very solid.

I'm going to have to break from the pack and give this list a "meh"

Yeah, there's a lot of HS putting down a bunch of damage (I'm including the PCS+chimera in there as well). That part's nice. The problem is what the heavy support is supporting.

Other than your tanks, the rest of your list boils down to 1 useless harker squad, 2 non-stubborn, no-standard infantry squads that will break and run as soon as they're sneezed on, and 2 mechvets.

This list has been naerly min-maxed in order to put out lots of damage at the cost of durability and scoring units. Good opponents will be able to capitalize on the ineffectual movement-based part of your list and just sort of shove you into a corner, where you will lose.

For example, there's nothing here to stop a drop pod with 2 groups of 5 sternguard with combi-meltas from gutting a big chunk of your HS. Anything with a strong contingency of outflankers will have less to worry about, and dark eldar would have a field day.

To me, it looks like your typical bottom-heavy 4th ed list. I'd recommend dropping marbo, the infantry platoon and harker for 3 more mechvets or something.

Do you think it would be possible to rework the infantry squad? For example:
Troop-Platoon Command Squad- Flamers (4), Chimera- 105
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Commissar- 100
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- 50
Drop Harker's squad and Marbo.

This would leave 150 points out of the 2000 list: Hobbit Snipers?
Elite- Ratlings (8)- 80
Elite- Ratlings (7)- 80

Alternatively, this is what my whole list would look like following Ailaros's advice:
HQ- Company Command Squad- Plasma Guns (4), Chimera- 165*
Elite-Psyker Battle Squad- Additional Sanctioned Psykers (5), Chimera- 165
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155*
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Flamer (3), Chimera- 140
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support- Manticore- 160

For 2000 point games add:
????
* denotes units I already have; I'd prefer that they stay in some way, shape, or form.

I'd prefer to avoid Valks/Vendetta's as I see no easy way to transport them.

now, see, that's much better. The only thing I don't like is the flamer vets. It wastes BS4 and doe a poor job duplicating the role of your hull heavy flamers (which every vehicle in the list should have.

I'd say drop the CCS plasma to melta to upgrade the flamers to melta, but that does leave you wanting on the whole anti-MC thing.

In any case, this is definitely better than the first list.

I'd say on those flamer vets if you cant fit in more meltas, swap them for grenade launchers. same price but can pack a punch for single targets and still provide a lasgun strength blast for hordes

RustyKnight wrote:Do you think it would be possible to rework the infantry squad? For example:
Troop-Platoon Command Squad- Flamers (4), Chimera- 105
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Commissar- 100
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- Grenade Launcher, Autocannon- 65
---------Infantry Squad- 50
Drop Harker's squad and Marbo.

This would leave 150 points out of the 2000 list: Hobbit Snipers?
Elite- Ratlings (8)- 80
Elite- Ratlings (7)- 80

Alternatively, this is what my whole list would look like following Ailaros's advice:
HQ- Company Command Squad- Plasma Guns (4), Chimera- 165*
Elite-Psyker Battle Squad- Additional Sanctioned Psykers (5), Chimera- 165
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155*
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Flamer (3), Chimera- 140
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)- 300*
Heavy Support- Manticore- 160

For 2000 point games add:
????
* denotes units I already have; I'd prefer that they stay in some way, shape, or form.

I'd prefer to avoid Valks/Vendetta's as I see no easy way to transport them.

I usually put the melta in the CCS and the plasma in a vet squad or 2. Melta squads usually get blown away after they pop a high value tank, and you don't want to have to sacrifice your troops to take down land raiders and the like. The CCS can also order itself to bring it down! or fire on my target! increasing your chances of taking down the enemy vehicle or MC. Give the plasma vets a lascannon or autocannon, and they can sit back while the melta teams advance, putting out single shots at 24 inches and then advancing forward as a counter assault unit when the enemy gets close.


I'm not a fan of the 2 X LRBT squads. Why not drop the second LRBT from each squadron and just add plasma sponsons to each solo tank? For only 40 points, you get 66% more killing power when shooting at MEQ squads. You also gain the ability to scare terminators, and you can put up to 3 wounds on monstrous creatures. You could drop the flamer vets as well (flamers are a waste of BS4), and pick up a platoon with the 360 points you free up. Give the PCS 4 flamers and a chimera, the infantry squads autocannons, and then pick up an autocannon heavy weapon squad or 2 with the spare points. Your list is really lacking the ability to split up advancing forces by popping transports from far away, and I think the addition of those cheap autocannons would really help.

Taking jcage's advice into account:

HQ- Company Command Squad- Melta Gun (4), Chimera- 145
Elite-Psyker Battle Squad- Additional Sanctioned Psykers (5), Chimera- 165
Troop-Veteran Squad- Plasma Gun (3), Lascannion, Chimera- 190
Troop-Veteran Squad- Plasma Gun (3), Lascannion, Chimera- 190
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3)- 100
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3)- 100
Fast Attack-Vendetta- 130
Fast Attack-Vendetta- 130
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (1)- Plasma Cannon Sponsons- 190
Heavy Support-Leman Russ Battle Tank (1)- Plasma Cannon Sponsons- 190
Heavy Support- Manticore- 160

For 2000 Points, add:
Heavy Support- Leman Russ Battle Tank (1)- 150 (to add an expendable wound to one squadron)
or
Troop-Veteran Squad- Melta Gun (3), Chimera- 155
or
Elite- Ratlings (8)- 80
Elite- Ratlings (7)- 70
---
I'm working on figuring out how to transport Vendetta's. If I can figure out how to do it, this list looks mighty fine to me.

jcage wrote: Give the plasma vets a lascannon or autocannon, and they can sit back while the melta teams advance

Don't do this.

jcage wrote:I'm not a fan of the 2 X LRBT squads. Why not drop the second LRBT from each squadron and just add plasma sponsons to each solo tank? For only 40 points, you get 66% more killing power when shooting at MEQ squads.

because you just cut the amount of AV14 in half. I don't like the squads either, but in this case turning lots of cheap tanks into fewer expensive tanks doesn't strike me as a better idea.

jcage wrote:Your list is really lacking the ability to split up advancing forces by popping transports from far away

You don't need long range firepower to split up an enemy force. Furthermore, you don't need to split up an enemy's force to win.

In any case, despite the flamer vets, your last list was better.

jcage wrote: Give the plasma vets a lascannon or autocannon, and they can sit back while the melta teams advance

Don't do this.

For 10 or 20 points, you gain the ability to put out light tank busting shots if it's too hot to advance into midfield. Plasma vets are used as a counter assault unit anyways, so they can usually afford to hold their position for a turn or 2 while the melta teams advance. 10 points is nothing really, so it's not a big deal if you find that you need to move them. I agree that melta teams should never be given heavy weapons, but I find that it's a decent choice on plasma teams.

jcage wrote:I'm not a fan of the 2 X LRBT squads. Why not drop the second LRBT from each squadron and just add plasma sponsons to each solo tank? For only 40 points, you get 66% more killing power when shooting at MEQ squads.

because you just cut the amount of AV14 in half. I don't like the squads either, but in this case turning lots of cheap tanks into fewer expensive tanks doesn't strike me as a better idea.

If they were AV12 I would agree, but AV14 is real hard to destroy at range if you don't have a ton of lances in your army. I routinely run a plascutioner in my list, and it almost never gets blown up unless it gets assaulted. Very few opponents are going to shoot at a russ when there are tons of far more fragile chimeras and vendettas around.

jcage wrote:Your list is really lacking the ability to split up advancing forces by popping transports from far away

You don't need long range firepower to split up an enemy force. Furthermore, you don't need to split up an enemy's force to win.
In any case, despite the flamer vets, your last list was better.

Yeah it's real fun when every transport in your opponent's army hits your line at the same time. It's hard to outmaneuver a mechanized force if you're not working to immobilize and destroy some of their transports at range. Mech guard lists like this need to be able to split up the enemy army and deal with it piece by piece; you spend a lot of points on transports, and you get more use out of them when you turn the other guys mechanized force into a footslogging force.

jcage wrote:For 10 or 20 points, you gain the ability to put out light tank busting shots if it's too hot to advance into midfield.

My complaint wasn't the points cost. My complaint was sending a handful of AV12 vehicles in first and then sending in another handful of AV12 later. You say that you want to split up an opponent's list if they're mechanized. Your solution voluntarily splits up your forces.

jcage wrote:If they were AV12 I would agree, but AV14 is real hard to destroy at range if you don't have a ton of lances in your army.

Which is why you bring a lot of it.

The whole point of bringing AV14 to an AV12 list is to make it so that your opponent has to shoot their serious anti-tank at your tanks, rather than your transports. If this is the entire reason to do this in the first place, then the OP's list wherein he takes 4 is doing it right.

Plus, leman russes may be good against long-range shooting, but they are FAR from indestructable. Redundancy is a good thing.

jcage wrote:Yeah it's real fun when every transport in your opponent's army hits your line at the same time. It's hard to outmaneuver a mechanized force if you're not working to immobilize and destroy some of their transports at range. Mech guard lists like this need to be able to split up the enemy army and deal with it piece by piece; you spend a lot of points on transports, and you get more use out of them when you turn the other guys mechanized force into a footslogging force.

You're arguing from both sides here.

On the one hand, you're saying that it's really hard to maneuver when your opponent still has a lot of armored units on the field. By the same measure, your opponent will be having a really hard time maneuvering while your still have your forces on the field. Not only that, but how is your opponent really going to be splitting up if they're not maneuvering?

On the other hand, you advocate splitting your opponent's forces up to deal with it in pieces as if that will cause them to instantly lose (because the dudes inside are totally immobilized when their transports are gone, let's remember...) This requires your opponent to decide to split his forces up, regardless of what you do to his transports. Meanwhile, you're advocating splitting your OWN forces up by putting stationary long range stuff in your backfield while charging out with the transports.

I'd say more, but you have to get your arguments straight before they can be properly rebutted.

In any case, yeah, having them hit your lines in full is unpleasant, but there are ways of dealing with transports other than the way you propose. For example, you can bring your own transports, which equally neutralizes your opponent's strategy without having to lift a finger.

In this case, the best solution for how to beat a mechanized player as a mechanized player is to be a better mechanized player. Taking stuff that will encourage you to play worse, isn't recommended.

Ailaros wrote:

jcage wrote:For 10 or 20 points, you gain the ability to put out light tank busting shots if it's too hot to advance into midfield.

My complaint wasn't the points cost. My complaint was sending a handful of AV12 vehicles in first and then sending in another handful of AV12 later. You say that you want to split up an opponent's list if they're mechanized. Your solution voluntarily splits up your forces.

jcage wrote:If they were AV12 I would agree, but AV14 is real hard to destroy at range if you don't have a ton of lances in your army.

Which is why you bring a lot of it.

The whole point of bringing AV14 to an AV12 list is to make it so that your opponent has to shoot their serious anti-tank at your tanks, rather than your transports. If this is the entire reason to do this in the first place, then the OP's list wherein he takes 4 is doing it right.

Plus, leman russes may be good against long-range shooting, but they are FAR from indestructable. Redundancy is a good thing.

jcage wrote:Yeah it's real fun when every transport in your opponent's army hits your line at the same time. It's hard to outmaneuver a mechanized force if you're not working to immobilize and destroy some of their transports at range. Mech guard lists like this need to be able to split up the enemy army and deal with it piece by piece; you spend a lot of points on transports, and you get more use out of them when you turn the other guys mechanized force into a footslogging force.

You're arguing from both sides here.

On the one hand, you're saying that it's really hard to maneuver when your opponent still has a lot of armored units on the field. By the same measure, your opponent will be having a really hard time maneuvering while your still have your forces on the field. Not only that, but how is your opponent really going to be splitting up if they're not maneuvering?

On the other hand, you advocate splitting your opponent's forces up to deal with it in pieces as if that will cause them to instantly lose (because the dudes inside are totally immobilized when their transports are gone, let's remember...) This requires your opponent to decide to split his forces up, regardless of what you do to his transports. Meanwhile, you're advocating splitting your OWN forces up by putting stationary long range stuff in your backfield while charging out with the transports.

I'd say more, but you have to get your arguments straight before they can be properly rebutted.

In any case, yeah, having them hit your lines in full is unpleasant, but there are ways of dealing with transports other than the way you propose. For example, you can bring your own transports, which equally neutralizes your opponent's strategy without having to lift a finger.

In this case, the best solution for how to beat a mechanized player as a mechanized player is to be a better mechanized player. Taking stuff that will encourage you to play worse, isn't recommended.

I like how you didn't really address my main points at all because "you have to get your arguments straight before they can be properly rebutted". My argument is that long range anti-light tank guns are good in a mechanized force, because it lets you limit your opponents movement and more effectively control the flow of the battle. Your argument is that you don't need to pop transports at range because " the best solution for how to beat a mechanized player as a mechanized player is to be a better mechanized player".

The idea is that you send 2 or 3 melta squads forward to deal with heavy armour (raiders, wagons) that is approaching your fire support. These are sacrificial melta squads, they are there to blow up enemy tanks. Your main force (plasma teams, russes etc.) hangs back and shoots at the now footslogging infantry. You bring autocannons and lascannons because you don't want to sacrifice a melta vet team and chimera to blow up a rhino. Blowing up transports at range is good because then your anti-infantry guns have targets to shoot at, do you see how that works?