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So after playing a handful of games in 8th, it's beginning to look to me like if you've got cheap infantry, horde 'em up. The question I've been struggling with is how many models should I shove into a unit.

I play Empire and currently run a big block of Halberdiers 10x4 strong. It seemed to me (at the time) that 40 was the optimum number of guys in a horde, allowing the 2 ranks of supporting attacks while still having casualties to burn. My problem is that against some of the more elite and smaller units, I don't get steadfast because they other guy is running his models in 5x5, giving him that extra rank over me even after casualties. This means my 220 point unit probably just fled, failing it's main objective.

I've come up with two alternatives:
1) Buy a bigger horde. Buy 50 guys, and make it one giant unit of 5x10. I should still get steadfast most of the time, and the advantages of being horde. If I did this, I'd probably run spearmen rather than halberdiers to take full advantage of the extra rank. My only issue here is that an expensive unit gets more expensive, and I'd like to use those points elsewhere.
2) Stop running horde. Buy 40 guys, but make it 2 units at 4x5 instead of 1 unit 4x10. It's cheaper to run them this way (than option 1), and easier to maneuver. My issue here is that I'm not running horde any longer, which is why I ran horde in the first place.

I still think horde is the way to go here, but if splitting the unit is more effective, then it's a route I'd rather take. So should I keep my unit the way it is (40 men at 4x10)? Should I go with one of my alternatives? Or is there something I'm missing entirely?

I like the idea of a horde of 50 Seaguard. But I haven't field tested it yet, but on paper it sounds awesome (shooty and pokey). I don't know how much spears cost for the empire, but it doesn't sound bad to have 4 ranks of spears poking back. Then again, 3 ranks of halberds doesn't sound too bad either.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I like the idea of a horde of 50 Seaguard. But I haven't field tested it yet, but on paper it sounds awesome (shooty and pokey). I don't know how much spears cost for the empire, but it doesn't sound bad to have 4 ranks of spears poking back. Then again, 3 ranks of halberds doesn't sound too bad either.

For Empire the halbderdiers and spearmen cost the same. As a matter of fact, they are exactly the same in every regard except weapons. Historically, I love halberds over spears, but what won me over in game was the extra strength the halberds grant. 3 ranks of halberds is fun (both spearmen and halberdiers only get one attack anyways), but I'm wondering if 50 of them is wasting that 5th rank if I go up to 50 men. I know it won't with spearmen, as having that 5th rank lets them take their casulties and still get all (most) of their attacks back.

I actually think a horde of halberdiers is much better than spears. It's 75% of the attacks, but with an extra point of strength, which modifies two dice rolls. There's also a lot of T5 stuff out there that spears largely bounce off of.

Back to your original question, I've really liked my 50 strong unit of Orc Boyz. It gives you the spare rank, and does so much damage that most smaller units that may have more ranks than me lose those ranks quickly. Even if your opponent does bring a powerful, high rank unit, you can always form up to get more ranks. There's nothing wrong with changing your formation to counter what you're fighting.

darkdm wrote:Historically, I love halberds over spears, but what won me over in game was the extra strength the halberds grant. 3 ranks of halberds is fun (both spearmen and halberdiers only get one attack anyways), but I'm wondering if 50 of them is wasting that 5th rank if I go up to 50 men. I know it won't with spearmen, as having that 5th rank lets them take their casulties and still get all (most) of their attacks back.

And you should love them in this game as well. A horde of halberds can be very effective.
I built a tool for the past few weeks at http://www.simhammer.com where you can test your horde of halberds in different ranks and see how they perform to other units.
This is still in beta now, so give me a little while and I will add other armies to to it.

When I was doing some tests, a horde of 50 was quite effective vs various targets. As you noted thought, a unit of 5*6 spearmen will cream them 98% of the time.
I think your best best is to reform out of horde when you are in that situation to get the extra ranks.

*Edit* After doing more tests, it seems that the empire troops get roflstomped by any real elite unit. A unit of 8*3 swordsmen turns the halberds pulp. Ill have to play with some numbers to see what can be done to lower this.

I like your simhammer but I found an error:

Round 1 ... Fight!
Starting initive order

Sword Masters have ASF...striking first!
Front rank has 21 attacks with 20 supporting for a total of 41!
WS 6 vs 5 needs a 3 to hit...rolling!
Total of 27 hits scored
Rerolling 14 misses due to ASF/Hatred
Total of 38 hits scored now...much better
STR 5 vs 4 needs a 3 to wound...rolling!
Total of 24 wounds scored
Base save of a 4 is allowed, modified by 2 from weapons
Total of 19 wounds saved
A total of 5 Chaos Warrior were killed this swing

Chaos Warrior is striking on Init 5!
Front rank has 19 attacks with 18 supporting for a total of 37!
WS 5 vs 6 needs a 4 to hit...rolling!
Total of 19 hits scored
STR 4 vs 3 needs a 3 to wound...rolling!
Total of 10 wounds scored
Base save of a 5 is allowed, modified by 1 from weapons
Total of 7 wounds saved
A total of 3 Sword Masters were killed this swing

Combat Results
Sword Masters lost a total of 3 models
Chaos Warrior lost a total of 5 models


It said there were 24 wounds scored by the high elves and on a save of 4+ modified by 2 from weapons that meant 19 saves made... should have been only 12 I think but who knows.

I'll turn on the flag so we can see every save rolled. It can get a bit spammy but that's why were in beta

Oh and at this time the WoC stuff is borked. When I get it working I'll post an update. It all depends on how busy my boss makes me next week

I had done some math myself earlier, and found that halberds on state troops are superior to spears as soon as the target has armor (which most troops do). I prefer halberds to spears, so that’s not the issue.

The issue is to how many guys to stick in a unit. People have been talking about reforming to suit the circumstances, which is great. But when you can reform is an issue. A surprise charge from 16 inches away could really throw you for a loop. And you can’t reform before you charge with infantry. So if you have a unit ranked up a certain way, and a charge is advantageous, then you’re stuck with what you’ve got. So rather than chose to charge or reform to receive it, I’d like to be able to know my unit could survive combat even if it lost badly. That’s why I’m asking.

The consensus seems to be that a 50 man unit is better than a 40 man unit for horde units, which is something I’m agreeing with more and more as I think about it. Still curious to see if anyone disagrees though.

darkdm wrote:The consensus seems to be that a 50 man unit is better than a 40 man unit for horde units, which is something I’m agreeing with more and more as I think about it. Still curious to see if anyone disagrees though.

I would go with 50. Its an extra, what...50 points? How does the expression go? "If your going to horde, horde up or shut up"

Plus they die easy so you will have 20 casualties before it starts cutting into your amount of attacks available. Also it will help with keeping steadfast alive.

I run my Big-Block-O-Skinks TM with 40 Skinks and 5 Kroxigors. With the rules for units of mixed base sizes, that counts me as having a whopping six ranks, ten wide. Even as a Horde I still have more ranks than most opponents running "normal" blocks!