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Hi, I'm relatively new to Warhammer 40k and have only played friendly games at friends' homes where rules involving miniatures can be bent frequently and easily, such as having entire units proxied in.

I understand that there is usually understood to be a "what you see is what you get" rule involved with more structured games. I plan to abide by those rules when I do make the leap into tournament games but there is one miniature issue I can't figure out, and can't seem to search out my answer anywhere:

How does "WYSIWYG" effect combi-weapons? For instance, I have seen boltguns with modifications on them to appear combi'd, but on the same note, I have also seen regular boltguns but had the rule applied to them with no modifications to their appearance (in a game played in a shop) as well as champions who carry combi weapons but also have power fists, excluding the combi-weapon all together but on their army list it read he was loaded out with combi-bolter (of a specific type).

In summary, I can't tell if appearance on miniatures with combi-weapons is as important in structured play so long as there is a list available to specifically say that the boltgun is infact a combi-weapon of a certain type or not.

Any tips or answers appreciated.

Zech

If your opponent cannot tell, simply by looking at the model, what weapon upgrades a model has, it isn't wysiwyg. That simple.

For combi-weapons, this isn't that hard, they all have a distinctive look. Melta guns just need that melta tip, flamers need the flamer-nozzle, and plasma guns need the plasma coils.

If I were playing in a tournament against someone where this wasn't represented,and the rules stated wysiwyg was required, i'd be within my rights to ignore that wargear, or even have a judge declare the model forfeit for rules violation. Many tournaments have this forfeiture as the default for models that are in violation, check the specific event rules for the event you're attending.

As above.

All codexes (even the chaos one where people try to claim differently) make you buy a specific "combi-X", so you shoudl ensure it is modelled to be "combi-X" and not just "bolter", so melta/flamer tip, plasma coils as mentioned.

Now this rule, in the rulebook, only exists for upgrade and special characters (and weirdly the whole eldar coex, because they have a codex specific rule tot hat effect) and threfore if the tournament, such as the one in the shop, DOESNT have a houserule on WYSIWYG for all models then that would be perfectly "legal". Not great, certainly confusing, but "legal" within the rules of the game IFF the models were not character models (or Eldar).

TBH the rule of cool, and the rule of dont-confuse-me, play huge parts in this game. If it looks awesome even if it isnt 100% wysiwyg you are likely to have far less complaints.

Sort of what's said.

The only thing I'll add is that there are some situations where many tournament organizers won't protest on a formal level. I.E. imperial guard veterans w/ shotguns instead of the lasguns all the models come with.

The only way this functions, however, is if every model w/ a lasgun actually has a shotgun. As soon as some have shots, some have las, but all are modeled the same ... well, no longer even that little bit of "gimme" wysiwyg and illegal.

Combi-Weapons are another close one, but not as easy to get away with. If every single space marine sarge in your entire army has the same combi-weapon, and every sarge is easily and uniquely modeled and identified, that's usually "acceptable" in the same kind of tournament that might accept the above lasgun/shotgun issue. That said, in any true WYSIWYG tournament that's a flat out no. You'd need to strap a melta/flamer/plasma/crossbow/whatever bit onto your bolter to legalize it.

Yup, combi-weapons are an obvious one, and have to be modelled.

Basically, it's any upgrade that has to be obvious. However, there are grey areas when it comes to things that could be in pouches or whatever, like grenades.

I've never heard of anyone complaining that their opponent hasn't modelled both frag AND krak grenades on their marines...!

ArbitorIan wrote:
I've never heard of anyone complaining that their opponent hasn't modelled both frag AND krak grenades on their marines...!

Ha! I put either Frags, Kraks, or pouches on most of my Black Templars when I started because they are "upgrades" according to their codex and thought I had to model all of them. I eventually stopped. Putting Frags AND kraks on the same model, in addition to their crusaider seals and regular weaponry, would make them look like walking armaments. Which, I guess, they are...

To the OP, I think it's been said here. If you look around, you'll find that WYSIWYG is one of the more talked about topics in this forum.

Tournaments:
The "best" or "right" answer is usually call ahead about tournaments and talk to the tournament orgainizer if you have a model or unit that you're worried about. Next best would be to talk to the Tournament Orgainzer at the tournament, but that's a little too late.

Model your power weapons, power fists, and power klaws.

Model your combi-weapons.

Model your special weapons (flamers, meltas, plasma pistols).

Model your heavies (Multi-melta, Plasma Cannon).

When in doubt, slap a pouch on their hip.

Friendly games:

Be 100% consistent. 'All flamers are actually meltas.' This is 345% better than "This little flamer is a plasma gun, this little flamer is a melta, this little flamer is actually a flamer, and this little flamer is a boltgun." I have studies and pie charts to back up my statistics.

If you have more than 1 substitution, write them down and leave the sheet in plain view for everyone. That way, there's no arguing later.

Bring your army list(s) to the game store. Ask your opponent to make one before you play.

Have fun. That's rule 1, by the way.

Right, but you don't have a choice (in 5th ed) about the grenades, or even the basic gear.

All chaos marines (And space wolves) have bolters, bolt pistols and chainswords, for example. I don't believe I've ever seen a model that has all three represented, but that's okay, because those aren't upgrades, they're the default for that model. Same with frag and krak grenades.

Meltabombs, on the other hand, are upgrades, and you should probably have them represented

I'll second the "model the meltabombs" motion, as they are indeed an upgrade, but a scattering on the models in the unit should be okay as long as it's a unit-wide upgrade, otherwise just add it on to the sarge as apropos. Personally I shoot for 50% of the unit having the little "fiddly" bits that are common across the unit as a whole.

Thanks!

Question has been answered a few times over at this point

Initially I thought if I had a single combi-melta in the unit, and had it down on the army list that all other models in the same unit had combi-meltas I might be able to get away with having the rest as standard bolters played out as combi-meltas. This, however, does not seem to be the case now, so I need to convert a lot of bolters into combi-meltas... with metal bits

Oh well, no biggy, figured I'd have to leap into using metal at some point!

Thanks for the replies, once again.

I guess these weapons will be pretty much useless??




a Kasrkin rifle with shotgun attachment people are saying.



And the minis people are going to use as stormtroopers.

and the minis dont even look good and people are saying they are the best!?!?!

these wysiwyg rules don't apply to these minis i say.

I don't know what you're talking about, because those weapons are totally just different pattern shotguns for Vets. Actually, the models themselves are pretty good for greatcoats. That paintjob isn't exactly the best at bringing out just how good they are. They're not Citadel, so they're not GW Tourny legal, but as Kid Kyoto says, apparently other manufacturers make plastic army men after all.

Most of the time, you can't use different companies' minis without using count as rule. Unless you make them wysiwyg that is.

poipo32 wrote:Most of the time, you can't use different companies' minis without using count as rule. Unless you make them wysiwyg that is.

..Right, and what I'm saying is that unless you can show me a box of IG Veterans, then ANY Vets you field are inherently count-as. For that matter, show me an IG sized shotgun produced within the last five years other than the one on Straken. In that case, I see no reason why shotguns can't look like whatever you declare to be a shotgun.

What I was really confused by was the Narznok's comment about "wysisyg rules" not applying to the models in question, and what he was trying to imply by the comment. Are you saying that these models aren't usable because they don't have lasguns? Or were you saying that they should be exempt from wysiwyg restrictions since they'd have to be converted in order to be used? Or something else altogether? Either way I don't feel this could be the case. You can give them lasguns from stock Cadians. You can declare them to be some special pattern lasgun that doesn't resemble the traditional ones (hotshot lasguns even).

The only thing you can't do is take them to a tournament that follows the GW x% must be Citadel miniature rules. Even then, depending on how generous GW is feeling for that event, you might be able to pull off tossing stock lasguns, grenades, and heads on them and get by with enough GW plastic to use them. I mean, anything else is with opponent's permission, but the entire game is basically opponent's permission when you think about it, because you're not coercing someone to play against their will after all.

So I just made a bunch of Combi-Melta guns with Chaos Terminator arms using Metal Meltagun bits.

A new problem has arisen. I forgot that the standard bolt gun in a Chaos Termie's arm is Twin-linked. Do you guys think my opponents will notice or even care? Or do I have to rip the stinking Meltagun pieces off again, clean everything, remove one of the twin-linked barrels (which is nearly microscopic anyways), then replace?

I, personally, think that the moment I have a meltagun barrel glued to a twin-linked boltgun it removes the twin-linkedness of it making it simply the combi-gun upgrade in question.

I'd want to see a picture of it. "Twin linked bolter" is a storm bolter, at least in physical appearance, which might actually cause some confusion. I don't think you can have a combi-melta/storm bolter though, so I'd be okay with it, but I'm more lax than most.

I apologize for the blurriness/graininess of the following pictures. I don't have the best camera and an unreliable stand for it.

After painting the models, the meltagun bit glued onto what was originally a TW Bolter just makes it look like a really bulky combi-bolter. Looks cool to me, though I'd still like a review over the wysiwyg rule for them:

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I suppose I can't speak for others though.

See, I wouldn't have a problem with it either, especially since those that make the conversion to make the cut for the wysiwyg rule know that their gun is no longer twin-linked.