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Hi Dakka!

After some discussion with some of my space marine playing friends, they asked me what I would like to see change with the BT should they ever get a new codex. In terms of units i'm not really sure, but I suspect that the vows will likely change somewhat. Here's what I think they might be (i'm not going to hazard a guess at the points costs!)

Suffer Not the Unclean to Live

This is one which I don't see changing that much, as it still has a place in 5th edition rules. If it were to change, id say it had some sort of opposite furious charge effect:

Black Templars Infantry + Jump Infantry units get +1 Strength when charging, but will have their Inititive reduced by 1 when they do

Abhor the Witch! Destroy the Witch!

This was pretty much made redundant in the new rules. I'd like to see something like the following:

Black Templars infantry + Jump Infantry units count as having the Preferred Enemy USR against any model capeable of casting a psychic power or wielding a Force Weapon. In addition, Black Templars infantry + Jump Infantry units get a 5+ invulnerable save against psychic attacks.

Uphold The Honour of the Emperor

Now that we have many more mechanics for units, I propose this as a better alternative to the current rule:

Black Templars Infantry + Jump Infantry cannot ever claim cover saves for any reason. In lieu of this, Black Templars Infantry and Jump Infantry gain the Feel No Pain USR

Accept Any Challenge, no matter the odds

This is very likely to get nerfed next edition. Here's what I think it will be:

Black Templars Infantry + jump infantry units count as having preferred enemy against one of the following unit types; infantry, jump infantry, walkers. In addition, Black Templars Infantry + jump infantry units count as having Furious charge against the selected unit type. Black Templars Infantry + jump infantry unit must always assault if possible (i.e. they have not rapid fired or fired heavy weapons).


Thoughts?

I like it, maybe the feel no pain might be over doing it a little.

The FNP rule is a bit much, the others are okay.

when is this new codex coming out any way?

I don't feel that the FNP rule isn't overdoing it really, not as much as the preferred enemy (current) rule is. Think about it this way, BT wouldn't get cover anymore but get FNP but against a Str 9 AP 3 ord blast the FNP still wouldn't work whereas they would have normally gotten a cover save if in position for such a save. FNP is easily negated, especially now with all the str8+ or ap 2/1 weapons abound.

Kevin949 wrote:I don't feel that the FNP rule isn't overdoing it really, not as much as the preferred enemy (current) rule is. Think about it this way, BT wouldn't get cover anymore but get FNP but against a Str 9 AP 3 ord blast the FNP still wouldn't work whereas they would have normally gotten a cover save if in position for such a save. FNP is easily negated, especially now with all the str8+ or ap 2/1 weapons abound.

I'd rather that they have rerolls to hit against everyone in close combat, than FNP.

Che-Vito wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I don't feel that the FNP rule isn't overdoing it really, not as much as the preferred enemy (current) rule is. Think about it this way, BT wouldn't get cover anymore but get FNP but against a Str 9 AP 3 ord blast the FNP still wouldn't work whereas they would have normally gotten a cover save if in position for such a save. FNP is easily negated, especially now with all the str8+ or ap 2/1 weapons abound.

I'd rather that they have rerolls to hit against everyone in close combat, than FNP.

Personally I'd rather they didn't, or it needs to cost more. It's extremely aggravating to get assaulted with 30-35 attacks all with power weapons, all getting to re-roll failed hits and failed wounds (obviously dependent on the loadout, but for illustration purposes I'm using Termies with 2 lightning claws as an example). With the way SA works now a days it's too potent of a combo for the cost. But that's just IMHO.

Yeah as much as I love getting PE on everyone, its way overpowered for its point cost - thats why I suggested the alternate version above. Maybe thats too overpowered as well - any other ideas for the 4th Vow?

Ya, my buddy has played around with the other vows a bit as well but none of them ever pay off as much as the PE one does. It would be better if it made it so that any unit the EC or Chaplain or whoever was attached to received PE, not the whole army.

I wouldn't be surprised if they returned to the 4th ed "hit on a 3+ against anything with a WS value" for AAC.

As far as usefulness for Uphold, I'd rather see this:

+1 to Invul save (or 6+ Invul if none; max 3+) and -1 to all cover saves.

Making it more of an HQ/Elite modifier.

I definitely agree that BT need some form of psychic defense, though I'd prefer a general form of defense bolstered by a vow. I've never enjoyed sitting there while my opponent annoys the hell out of me with psychic powers, just because I didn't take the anti-psyker vow.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the next incarnation of Suffer Not was just Furious Charge. Considering how easy it is to give a large force of Blood Angels the rule, I don't see why BT can't take it as a vow, albeit at a higher cost.

Kevin949 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I don't feel that the FNP rule isn't overdoing it really, not as much as the preferred enemy (current) rule is. Think about it this way, BT wouldn't get cover anymore but get FNP but against a Str 9 AP 3 ord blast the FNP still wouldn't work whereas they would have normally gotten a cover save if in position for such a save. FNP is easily negated, especially now with all the str8+ or ap 2/1 weapons abound.

I'd rather that they have rerolls to hit against everyone in close combat, than FNP.

Personally I'd rather they didn't, or it needs to cost more. It's extremely aggravating to get assaulted with 30-35 attacks all with power weapons, all getting to re-roll failed hits and failed wounds (obviously dependent on the loadout, but for illustration purposes I'm using Termies with 2 lightning claws as an example). With the way SA works now a days it's too potent of a combo for the cost. But that's just IMHO.

But regardless of rerolls to hit...that combo will kill most things in the first round of attacks. FNP, makes then harder to kill with massed shooting (bolters, lasguns, pulse rifles, etc.)

I'd rather they be beast at CC, and easier to kill with shooting.