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I've made the mistake of reading way too many vehicle turning/pivoting/moving threads and have gotten myself utterly confused between 18 million opinions on as many subjects. I know how I've been doing it, but am wondering if I was wrong now after searching 3 editions of the rules for a line that apparently never existed to begin with.

1) When moving a vehicle model, at what exact point do you measure from when starting the move, after each turn, and at the end of the move.

2) Same question, only applied to a non vehicle model on a base.

For vehicles it is generally played as: turn/pivot(if desired) Move forward as many inches as desired(within available speeds); turning/pivoting as many times and whenever desired. Speed is determined by the number of inches actually moved, not distance traveled.

For non-vehicle models Simply measure the distance you want to move in any direction, Move the models there, then face the models in whatever direction you want them to be in. The only time it matters how far a non-vehicle model has moved is with Bikes/Jetbikes turbo-boosting; for them, after the move, measure from their starting point to the end point(Front of base to front of base, but really anywhere on the model to the same spot should work out the same way) and if that distance is 18" or greater you get the Save

Kommissar Kel wrote:For vehicles it is generally played as: turn/pivot(if desired) Move forward as many inches as desired(within available speeds); turning/pivoting as many times and whenever desired. Speed is determined by the number of inches actually moved, not distance traveled.

Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

For non-vehicle models Simply measure the distance you want to move in any direction, Move the models there, then face the models in whatever direction you want them to be in. The only time it matters how far a non-vehicle model has moved is with Bikes/Jetbikes turbo-boosting; for them, after the move, measure from their starting point to the end point(Front of base to front of base, but really anywhere on the model to the same spot should work out the same way) and if that distance is 18" or greater you get the Save

So you measure at the start and finish of the move from the same point on the base, relative to the model's facing or relative to the direction of movement?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

Nothing as long as you don't move over the 12" allowed for vehicles/6" allowed for troops you are fine.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:For vehicles it is generally played as: turn/pivot(if desired) Move forward as many inches as desired(within available speeds); turning/pivoting as many times and whenever desired. Speed is determined by the number of inches actually moved, not distance traveled.

Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

Honestly; nothing. The BRB says nothing about what direction you actually have to move in; only that you move the model a set distance along a relatively linear plane(not in so many words). The BRB makes reference to a vehicle being able to combine "forward and reverse movement" but the rest of that sentence and the context in the paragraph are all referring to the infinite number of turns/pivots. In all honesty so long as your movement is in straight lines, Diagonal movement is exactly the same distance moved as Pivot(to match direction with the diagonal), move(forward), Pivot(to return to original facing)

Maelstrom808 wrote:

For non-vehicle models Simply measure the distance you want to move in any direction, Move the models there, then face the models in whatever direction you want them to be in. The only time it matters how far a non-vehicle model has moved is with Bikes/Jetbikes turbo-boosting; for them, after the move, measure from their starting point to the end point(Front of base to front of base, but really anywhere on the model to the same spot should work out the same way) and if that distance is 18" or greater you get the Save

So you measure at the start and finish of the move from the same point on the base, relative to the model's facing or relative to the direction of movement?

That is a bit questionable; the BRB says to Measure a Move "front of Base to Front of base" relative to the direction of movement(even movement towards your table edge, which is subjectively the back of the base, is objectively the front of the base for movement purposes); Now for turbo boost you test distance traveled after you moved; which is fine to use "front of base to front of base" objectively for straight-line movement; it is when you start turning to move around obstructions that you lose an objective grasp on how far you moved relative to your starting position. Your best bet for this is actually to determine start and end distance from the center of the model(on account of most bike/jetbikes being oblong); in this manner you still have an objective view of just how far the model moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

Nothing as long as you don't move over the 12" allowed for vehicles/6" allowed for troops you are fine.

Some vehicles can move up to 13", 18", 19", or 24".

And some "troops" can move 12" or 24" Or even be restricted to 2d6 pick the highest inches.

This is why in my post I stated as far as you are allowed to move instead of giving a blanket X".

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:For vehicles it is generally played as: turn/pivot(if desired) Move forward as many inches as desired(within available speeds); turning/pivoting as many times and whenever desired. Speed is determined by the number of inches actually moved, not distance traveled.

Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

Honestly; nothing. The BRB says nothing about what direction you actually have to move in; only that you move the model a set distance along a relatively linear plane(not in so many words). The BRB makes reference to a vehicle being able to combine "forward and reverse movement" but the rest of that sentence and the context in the paragraph are all referring to the infinite number of turns/pivots. In all honesty so long as your movement is in straight lines, Diagonal movement is exactly the same distance moved as Pivot(to match direction with the diagonal), move(forward), Pivot(to return to original facing)

Maelstrom808 wrote:

For non-vehicle models Simply measure the distance you want to move in any direction, Move the models there, then face the models in whatever direction you want them to be in. The only time it matters how far a non-vehicle model has moved is with Bikes/Jetbikes turbo-boosting; for them, after the move, measure from their starting point to the end point(Front of base to front of base, but really anywhere on the model to the same spot should work out the same way) and if that distance is 18" or greater you get the Save

So you measure at the start and finish of the move from the same point on the base, relative to the model's facing or relative to the direction of movement?

That is a bit questionable; the BRB says to Measure a Move "front of Base to Front of base" relative to the direction of movement(even movement towards your table edge, which is subjectively the back of the base, is objectively the front of the base for movement purposes); Now for turbo boost you test distance traveled after you moved; which is fine to use "front of base to front of base" objectively for straight-line movement; it is when you start turning to move around obstructions that you lose an objective grasp on how far you moved relative to your starting position. Your best bet for this is actually to determine start and end distance from the center of the model(on account of most bike/jetbikes being oblong); in this manner you still have an objective view of just how far the model moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not that it has anything to do with my original question, but what stops you from sliding the model sideways or diagonally for that matter instead of moving "forward"?

Nothing as long as you don't move over the 12" allowed for vehicles/6" allowed for troops you are fine.

Some vehicles can move up to 13", 18", 19", or 24".

And some "troops" can move 12" or 24" Or even be restricted to 2d6 pick the highest inches.

This is why in my post I stated as far as you are allowed to move instead of giving a blanket X".

Was in reference to normal vehicles, not fast ones. thus the 12" move and 6" move for Infantry (not Jump infantry).

the BRB says to Measure a Move "front of Base to Front of base"

See this is what gets me. As far as I can tell, there is no rule that tells you anything about where to measure from. I thought that I remembered a rule somewhere that stated something like you measure from the same point for the begining and end of a move. Through the last 3 edition rule books I can find nothing of the sort. All I can find is where is tells you to measure from the hull on vehicle models (thanks, but where on the hull?), and on the inset diagram on pg 12 it diagrams the "right" and "wrong" way of measuring movement, but aside from saying "don't put it on the far side of the tape" it doesn't explain any further. It implies several other things, but implied means jack. As to how models move along the path, it's pretty ambiguous as well. Very irritating.

Death reaper; I know you were talking about Normal vehicles and Standard infantry, but the basic rules on how you move apply to all vehicles and non-vehicles. With certain caveats for models that can ignore certain terrains, or modify their rules.

For example standard infantry with a low wall in front of them take a difficult terrain test to see just how far they can move over and past said wall; jump/jetpack infantry ignore the wall altogether, and MC get to smash through the wall(modifying the difficult terrain test) Standard infantry and MCs can also choose to go around the wall in most cases, which will modify the distance traveled and forces those models to move in straight lines up to 6"(hard number given because models in question have a hard limitation), but allowing those straight lines to come off at different angles of approach(example being a 1.5" move up to the wall, followed by a 3" move to the right along the wallto fully clear it with your base and a 1.5" move past the wall; netting a distance traveled of 4.25" from the starting point "as the crow flies"). In the Mean time the Jump/Jetpack infantry can still simply clear the wall up to their maximum move; Netting the full distance of movement intended(i.e. they will have traveled 6" from their start point if that was the desired distance moved).

Yeah, that all I get, no problem. I'm talking more along the lines of if you make a couple of 90 degree turns in the middle of your path, on each leg are you measuring form the same point on the model you measured at the beginning of the move? I'm trying to tighten up my game and am looking at precise measurement of moves.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

the BRB says to Measure a Move "front of Base to Front of base"

See this is what gets me. As far as I can tell, there is no rule that tells you anything about where to measure from. I thought that I remembered a rule somewhere that stated something like you measure from the same point for the begining and end of a move. Through the last 3 edition rule books I can find nothing of the sort. All I can find is where is tells you to measure from the hull on vehicle models (thanks, but where on the hull?), and on the inset diagram on pg 12 it diagrams the "right" and "wrong" way of measuring movement, but aside from saying "don't put it on the far side of the tape" it doesn't explain any further. It implies several other things, but implied means jack. As to how models move along the path, it's pretty ambiguous as well. Very irritating.

As I said "Front of Base" is a relative term in this case; I was in fact referring to the diagram on Page 12 as a guideline for how that relativity functions. As far as where on the Hull you measure from in the case of movement: Pretty much anywhere on the hull, so long as the end of the measurement is made at the same point you measured from.
Lets take a Chimera as an example, and assume that forward movement is the only available movement as inferred by the brb. Now I choose to begin my chimeras movement, and I pivot the tank into the direction i intend to move, I then decide I am going to move at cruising speed, but I also estimate that the impassable(or undesirable rough) terrain in my intended path is about 4" away from me(and my path will get me within 2" of the border of said terrain). I then take out my tape measure and choose the Spot on the hull directly in front of my Heavy bolter to measure from; i measure out and sure enough the terrain is 4" away, I move my tank strait ahead ending the measure pointon the hull in front of my heavy bolter. then i pivot 90* to the right, and move 3 more inches, again begining and ending the line directly in front of the heavy bolter(because it is an easy spot to remember); turn 90* to the Left and move 5" past the front(relative to the direction I am traveling) of the terrain.
Now in the case of targeting a vehicle with a ranged attack(or similar measurements to the vehicle); the closest point of the Hull to the closest model(or firing model) in the unit is where, on the hull, you measure to/from. So measure from the Lascannon to the closest point of the hull; or in an Apoc game measure from the closest point on the hull of a Command tank upgraded ShadowSword to the unit desiring a Morale test reroll.

The brb never does actually state that movement must be in a straight line, or a series of straight lines(at varying angles); but it does seem to Assume this is what we the players will be doing, and is the most logical way to move the models based on the limited guidelines set forth in the book. Arcing or curved movement will generally "waste" potential distance traveled(a curved line between two points is always longer than a straight line between the same two points), and a Series of straight lines will equal the length of the Curved line(when done right).

Reading the whole of the Vehicle rules Implies(but never explicitly states) that all vehicle movement should be "forward" relative to the front facing of the vehicle. This is because of the infinite turn/pivot; and gets backed up by the tank Shock and Ram rules(which do explicitly state Pivot/turn Then move forward in a straight line the desired distance/full distance until contact is made). the Ork Looted wagon also explicitly states that when the Ork player fails a "don't press dat" check the Tank moves straight ahead its maximum distance(or until stopped by impassable terrain) and will tank shock/Ram any enemy models in that line.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, that all I get, no problem. I'm talking more along the lines of if you make a couple of 90 degree turns in the middle of your path, on each leg are you measuring form the same point on the model you measured at the beginning of the move? I'm trying to tighten up my game and am looking at precise measurement of moves.

Yes the rules are not great.

I just do the best I can, but i usually do not have to make many turns.

maybe measure from the point on the hull that is closest to where you will end up, and make sure that is the closest point when you are done moving.

My example; written out before Maelstrom's reply used the Same point for all measurements, but that is not a requirement. I did it for ease of reference to a single point. after the first 90* turn i could have measured from the front edge of the tracks(considered hull) and then after the second turn measured from the hull under the multilaser barrel. so long as each leg of movement is measured to-from the same point on the hull it is just fine.

Yeah, I think I'm pretty straight on it now, and I've been doing things pretty right, if a bit sloppy.

By the way, page 12 of the BRB has movement measuring at the top of the page.

Secondly, I would recommend NOT just moving a vehicle sideways or diagonally for a couple of reasons. First is the side is, generally speaking, a bit harder to measure the same point to and from. Not quite as many easy to see markers. Secondly is it's bad habit. A model cannot move through other models, and a vehicle cannot move sideways.

Although functionally just picking up your tank and putting it where it's going, as though it has pivoted both at the start and the end of movement, is the same; it has to travel "forward" or "reverse" (IE from the front forward or from the back backward, PG57) and as such the front of the model (or back) is the part that has to fit through gaps, not the side. 99% of the time does this matter? No, because usually the front is smaller than the sides, and usually you are not traveling through gaps. However, you don't want to get into the habit for the 1% of the time where it does matter and you get it wrong.

EDIT:
One more point:

Yeah, that all I get, no problem. I'm talking more along the lines of if you make a couple of 90 degree turns in the middle of your path, on each leg are you measuring form the same point on the model you measured at the beginning of the move? I'm trying to tighten up my game and am looking at precise measurement of moves.

If you always measure from the front of the vehicle, and turn it to face what direction it is going, you cannot make a mistake on how far you have, or get to, move.

Shrike325 wrote:By the way, page 12 of the BRB has movement measuring at the top of the page.

Like I said before, all it specificly says is not to place the model beyond the far end of the tape measure. The diagram suggests or implies a few other things but does not specificly say that they are how and where you measure.

Secondly, I would recommend NOT just moving a vehicle sideways or diagonally for a couple of reasons. First is the side is, generally speaking, a bit harder to measure the same point to and from. Not quite as many easy to see markers. Secondly is it's bad habit.

I don't really see that it's any harder to measure from. There is enough detail on every vehicle model that I've seen to be able to measure from the same spot (front, side, rear, wherever) just fine.

A model cannot move through other models, and a vehicle cannot move sideways.

Although functionally just picking up your tank and putting it where it's going, as though it has pivoted both at the start and the end of movement, is the same; it has to travel "forward" or "reverse" (IE from the front forward or from the back backward, PG57) and as such the front of the model (or back) is the part that has to fit through gaps, not the side. 99% of the time does this matter? No, because usually the front is smaller than the sides, and usually you are not traveling through gaps. However, you don't want to get into the habit for the 1% of the time where it does matter and you get it wrong.

On pg 57 it says "Turning does not reduce a vehicle's move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed it's maximum move." Again, it implies that the vehicle always moves in a forward direction relative to the vehicle's facing (otherwise the second part of that line is fairly meaningless), but it stops short of implicitly saying that.

EDIT:
One more point:

Yeah, that all I get, no problem. I'm talking more along the lines of if you make a couple of 90 degree turns in the middle of your path, on each leg are you measuring form the same point on the model you measured at the beginning of the move? I'm trying to tighten up my game and am looking at precise measurement of moves.

If you always measure from the front of the vehicle, and turn it to face what direction it is going, you cannot make a mistake on how far you have, or get to, move.

Which is how I play it for the sake of simplicity and accuracy, but as the rules read to me, this is not the only way to move a vehicle.

Shrike: When Moving across clear terrain without any pivoting(in a straight line); and not near any enemy models; Strafing and diagonal movement is just fine(and supported by the lack of definitive rules). The only time you really need to pivot and move is when you need to make that move legal by doing such(i.e. to not move through other models, or end within 1" of an enemy model, or to clear difficult/impassable terrain)If fact there may be cases where your tank is surrounded in front, rear, and the right side by enemy models; You cannot move forward, back, nor pivot(since any such movement would force you to move through another model) but you may move directly left to clear the models before moving/pivoting; this is all legal by the rules telling us you can move but not in which direction you move.

It makes sense(logically) that a wheeled or tracked vehicle should not be able to move sideways; but the rules do allow it.

And again the Movement(and vehicle movement) rules do imply that straight forward is the only available movement method; but the actual rules never state this.

the general rules(for both) state move as far as you want within the legal distance and turn as many times as you want, whenever you want during the move, but does not tell you what direction you move.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It makes sense(logically) that a wheeled or tracked vehicle should not be able to move sideways; but the rules do allow it.

Because movement is an Abstraction. Real armies don't take it in turns to Move everyone about, kindly thank the enemy for staying still while they do, then take turns shooting at each other (at least, not since they invented proper guns).