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Here's a couple Chaos lists I came up with. The first I narrowly lost to my Eldar opponent (using a slight variation), the second is untested. (If my Vehicle Damage rolls had been better, I would have won).

HQ:
Chaos Lord, Bike, MoK, Lightning Claws, Combi-Melta, Meltabombs - 175

Troops:
9x Khorne Berzerkers, Champ w/ Power Weapon - 219
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, 2x Melta - 180
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, Plasma, Missile Launcher - 185
...in a Rhino

Fast Attack:
7x Chaos Bikers, IoN, 2x Melta - 301

Heavy Support:
Defiler, 4x DCCW - 150
Defiler, 4x DCCW - 150

Total: 1500

The idea here is to use the bikes to rush forward, screen the rhinos, take out tanks, etc. The Defilers should generally pair up and march into assault range, laying down S8 pie plates when necessary (this is less useful against Mechdar, but I imagine it would work fine against Rhinos and other light tanks and infantry). The rhinos can then split up and accomplish various tasks, hold objectives, carve up normal infantry, etc.

I really enjoyed playing the bikes, and it was nice to have the mobility up front with the meltaguns. However, once the enemy turned its guns on the bikers, they started to drop pretty easily, even w/ the T6. The defilers managed to keep the enemy off of my other stuff for awhile though.

So, as much as the mobility was nice, the bikes ended up kinda out of place when my forces hit the meat grinder (they fortunately didn't get stuck too far ahead, as I doubled back to my lines pretty early on). The defilers barely did anything, but the amount of attention they drew was astounding. If my rolls had been better in assaults, I think they would have fared admirably. So, with those things in mind, I made a second list that's a bit slower, but (maybe?) works together a little more coherently.

HQ:
Daemon Prince, MoT, Warptime, Wings - 175
Daemon Prince, MoT, Warptime, Wings - 175

Troops:
10x Khorne Berzerkers, Champ w/ Power Weapon - 240
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, 2x Melta - 180
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, Flamer, Missile Launcher - 175
...in a Rhino

Heavy Support:
Defiler, 4x DCCW - 150
Defiler, 4x DCCW - 150
Defiler, 4x DCCW - 150

Total: 1500

The idea here is to phalanx up the board, screening where necessary. The ML rhino will probably end up at the back so it can fire, but I think I can work around it. 3x Defilers, 2x MCs, and a rhino full of zerkers is pretty threatening I think. Though, I could be horribly wrong. (I know the zerkers should have a Possessed/EA rhino, but I want to try this first. Alternatively I can drop a zerker, give the rhino Extra Armour, and give the champ meltabombs for some AV help).

As always, critiques are welcome.

First off. The Gamesworkshop people get really angry if you post the point values like that. You should do an entire squad ( x10 CSM, x2 flamers, IoCG, Rhino : 205 points) instead of labeling how much rhinos cost and single models.

Well. Four defilers is quite the monster mash list. I wouldn't do the x4 DCCW loadout though even though its mean as hell. The TL Autocannon is incredibably useful for poping rhino's, side armors, practically everything light armor.

They're still CC beasts with only 2 DCCWs. Fielding that much oppressive autocannon/battlecannon/heavyflamer or havok launcher firepower would be cool.

Your's Daemon Princes look very strong. The most survivable DP to say the least. If you're looking for 4++ save on a MC, why not try to fit in a Greater Daemon for cheaper. You just need a good way to enter it.


If you're really loving Defilers, I say keep them. And drop the extra DCCW, and try to add some actual Dradnaughts. They're way worth it if taken in a careful manner. lookee

x2 Dreadnoughts, DCCW + ML :200 pts (field them right next to each other, if they rampage they'll just shoot each other with frag missiles which won't do anything. So enjoy some safer missile launchers and more walkers!
x2 Defilers, Havok Launcher :310 (It complements the TL autocannon bc Walkers can move and fire all their weapons normal, cept ordinance)
x2 DPs, Wings + MoT :300 (take the warptime or doombolt or both if you have the points later, it's the most survivable DP at it's cheapest)

This is a traditional "core" to a real nice monster mash list for CSM with my individual preferences. 4 walkers and two MCs. About 700 points to work with still.

Regardless of what you do, if you're fielding that many defilers with MCs, do whatever you can to get more rhinos. They're tremendously useful when you have that much target saturation already, even small units with rhinos do really well sometimes.

So perhaps something more along these lines?

HQ:
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, DCCW/Missile Launcher, EA
Chaos Dreadnought, DCCW/Missile Launcher, EA

Troops:
10x CSM, IoCG, 2x Flamer, Champ w/ PW, Combi-Flamer - 210
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, 2x Melta - 180
...in a Rhino

10x CSM, IoCG, Flamer, Missile Launcher - 175
...in a Rhino

Heavy Support:
Defiler, 3x DCCW, R. Autocannon
Defiler, 3x DCCW, R. Autocannon

Total: 1500

That's a pretty good looking beat stick type of army.
4 Walkers, 3 Rhinos, 2 MCs

You're troops will be flexible and strong / resilient still. But don't expect them to be overpowering against much.

If you liked the idea of Zerkers before and you're trying to field a PW on squad (because it's a good killy weapon) Why not just stick to them? x8, Champ + PW = 198

A different Dakka user promoted the idea of a lash deamon prince. I think in a list like this and already having two MCs at least one of them being a Lash DP would really really help all your walkers get into CC very quickly. Moving units up to 2D6

I had liked the zerkers, though to be honest I kinda jumped the gun with the new list. I ended up changing it slightly to get rid of that over-costed champion in the CSM, and get another S8 missile shot out of my troops. (That way, one can move and one can fire, leapfrog style - this has worked for me in the past).

So combined with your Lash suggestion (yes, I would agree that it would work well in this particular situation, though I don't want it to become a crutch), here's my final list:

HQ:
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Warptime -
Daemon Prince, MoS, Wings, Lash -

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, DCCW/Missile Launcher, EA -
Chaos Dreadnought, DCCW/Missile Launcher, EA -

Troops:
10x CSM, IoCG, 2x Melta - 180
...in a Rhino, Dozer Blade -

10x CSM, IoCG, Flamer, Missile Launcher - 175
...in a Rhino -

10x CSM, IoCG, Flamer, Missile Launcher - 175
...in a Rhino -

Heavy Support:
Defiler, 3x DCCW, R. Autocannon -
Defiler, 3x DCCW, R. Autocannon -

Total: 1500

That looks pretty solid to me. One of those types of lists that "covers all the bases". The rest depends on the dice and on the player.

And yeah as some other Dakka people before me have said "You shouldn't depend on a lash, but it does work well sometimes" or something along those lines you seem to have the right attitude towards it though.

Very nice list IMO. Personally unless playing with lots of terrain stuff, I'd drop the dozer blade and give the MoT Daemon Prince Doombolt, it works with Warptime and he can cast two per round.

Good luck!

Thanks for the commentary, it really helped.

Oh, and I can't swap the dozer; doombolt costs twice as much.

then drop it and add melta bombs to Aspiring champion

Sabatine wrote:then drop it and add melta bombs to Aspiring champion

There are no champions in the last list I posted.

oh my bad well your under 1500 then go with it.

Okay, so I was able to play to a draw with this list last night. It worked... alright. I'm not sure why, but it didn't seem to feel very effective - though there were some factors involved:

--Everything in my opponent's army could outrun or seriously hurt vehicles, meaning I had trouble with target priority. (He had an Avatar, Wraithlord, Jetcouncil, flying tanks, etc. No fire dragons though).
--There was a lot of terrain on the map (I was overzealous in devising it); this made it somewhat difficult for my defilers and rhinos to maneuver, while it affected his skimmers much less (although I could hide very effectively).
--Both my dreadnoughts rolled fire frenzy on turn 1. One of them even got 2 krak shots at the avatar; he missed both. (My missile firing that game was terrible; so was my opponent's). But long story short, the dreads didn't get up into the action for a while due to crazyness.
--Lastly, I made a few tactical errors (partially in deployment) that left a defiler sitting where he couldn't do anything for half the game, and I failed every 4+ invulnerable save for my Tzeentch DP.

Ultimately we only came to a draw because of some luck on my part at the end; I had been able to hold all of his stuff at the middle, leaving my objective rhino unharmed... and his shots never connected with it. If I hadn't been so lucky on some of those rolls, he would have easily gotten stuff contesting my objective.

So I'm still trying to sort through what issues were with my luck, and what issues were with my use of the list. I dunno, I got kinda turned off to the dreadnoughts, seeing as they did very little. I'll probably fool around with a few list variants and see what happens.

I would have to disagree about the autocannons on the defilers. Why fire an auto-cannon that has trouble penning a rhino when you can fire a battle cannon that has hardly and problems and is probably just as likely to hit.

I would suggest going back to 3 defilers. They can be amazing in close and at range. Although they are very easy to destroy.

Koski wrote:x2 Dreadnoughts, DCCW + ML :200 pts (field them right next to each other, if they rampage they'll just shoot each other with frag missiles which won't do anything. So enjoy some safer missile launchers and more walkers!

Sorry, but missle launcher is a gak idea.

1. Dreads do most damage in combat. No sense losing an attack in close combat to destroy your own Vehicles.
2. You CANNOT Chose what type of Missle the dread shoots. Codex Specifically sais "NO Holding Back!" so you shoot whatever is most effective against your target. When in doubt, enemy chooses. If it rolls fire frenzy beside your defiler, youre defiler will have a pair of S8 Missles hitting it.

Wasnt the Dread fire frenzt thing in the FAQ? f not, i'm certain it's been Gwar!'d. And Gwar! is ALWAYS right. Always.

NostrilOfTerror wrote:
2. You CANNOT Chose what type of Missle the dread shoots. Codex Specifically sais "NO Holding Back!" so you shoot whatever is most effective against your target. When in doubt, enemy chooses. If it rolls fire frenzy beside your defiler, youre defiler will have a pair of S8 Missles hitting it.

Wasnt the Dread fire frenzt thing in the FAQ? f not, i'm certain it's been Gwar!'d. And Gwar! is ALWAYS right. Always.

Wrong on both counts. It does NOT say that in the Codex, under the rules for Fire Frenzy, nor does it say that anywhere in the FAQ.

Indeed. And nowhere in the Codex does it say that Defilers can have four Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons. They come with two and can add up to two Close Combat Weapons.

Likewise it's significant that line of sight in 5th edition is drawn from a Walker's weapon mounts, and all Walker weapon mounts have a 90 degree forward facing arc. A Chaos Dreadnought shoulder to shoulder with a Defiler will not turn 45 degree and shoot a unit that was previously not visible to it. You check to see what the closest unit is within its 90 degree line of sight, pick the closest friend or foe, and then turn the Dreadnought.

Nurglitch wrote:And nowhere in the Codex does it say that Defilers can have four Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons. They come with two and can add up to two Close Combat Weapons.

I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out.

wat? Two lightning claws and a combi-melta? How can he steer the bike holding three weapons?

Looks good though. Those nurgle bikers might work better in two seperate units though maybe?

Samus_aran115 wrote:wat? Two lightning claws and a combi-melta? How can he steer the bike holding three weapons?

Retractable claws!

Lol.

I think I've found a variant that suits me better (okay, so I only played one game... but the list felt smoother - oh and it was a draw). Dunno how well it'll do as an all comers, but I think it has promise.

Short version:

2x Lash prince
ML/Flamer CSM + Rhino
Zerks + Rhino
Melta CSM + Rhino
3x Defilers with +1CCW and TL Lascannon (yeah yeah lascannons are terrible choice... they work well for me, since my BC shots tend to miss often, and the meta for my games has very few infantry blobs, so my Defilers are wasted early on without something else to shoot)

Chaos Mutation: Prehensile Testicles.