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Ok - I'll use a Defiler as an example. When the book sais that you need to hide atleast 50% of a Vehicle to get a cover Save,so, to give a defiler a cover save....
A) Only count the Parts you can shoot at:
Cover Just the Body (as that technically is 50% of the parts you can shoot at)

B)Count the Parts you could shoot at as well as any airspace that the model takes up:
Covering the Body would NOT get a cover save, as the Legs, along with the space between them, is more than 50%



Help me Gwar!
...oh... and you too, dakka... JK... but help me... please?...I'll shut up now...

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Ok - I'll use a Defiler as an example. When the book sais that you need to hide atleast 50% of a Vehicle to get a cover Save,so, to give a defiler a cover save....
A) Only count the Parts you can shoot at:
Cover Just the Body (as that technically is 50% of the parts you can shoot at)

B)Count the Parts you could shoot at as well as any airspace that the model takes up:
Covering the Body would NOT get a cover save, as the Legs, along with the space between them, is more than 50%



Help me Gwar!
...oh... and you too, dakka... JK... but help me... please?...I'll shut up now...

50% of the facing the enemy is in.

It's up to you to define what the "hull" is, so you determine how much of the facing is obscured.

But regardless of anything, space between legs would never be considered hull, or part of the vehicle ..... dont know where that one came from.

Gwar! wrote:50% of the facing the enemy is in.

It's up to you to define what the "hull" is, so you determine how much of the facing is obscured.

What he said.

In my local we generally count the two front legs as front armour, two back legs as rear, and the others as side. It makes it alot easier if you only have to consider some of the legs when determining obscured status.

How does Gwar get here so quickly...maybe if I clap my hands he will come again...*claps*

EDIT: Gwar, are you suparman?

Jaon wrote:How does Gwar get here so quickly...maybe if I clap my hands he will come again...*claps*

EDIT: Gwar, are you suparman?

It is daylight. Trolles have to hide or we turn to stone!

I had a kid one time say that he could see my whole rhino through a window of a wall and therefore it was not 50% obscured and therefore demanded that his melta Russ would have an unobstructed shot at it.

Now if you got down and looked through the window of the ruins, you could see the whole rhino, however the ruins still did cover over 50% of the vehicle.

TO ruled in my favor.

Hmm, I have a hard time imagining that one. To be able to see the entire rhino and still be in range of the melta, it seems that would have to be a big damn window...but if that was the case, how exactly is the rhino 50% obscurred if you can see the whole thing?

Slight corollary question since MCs require 50% just like vehicles. What is the answer to this scenario:

Trygon is standing behind a hill. 50% of the total height of the model is blocked. But since the majority of the mass is above its "waist" only about 20% of the body surface area is obscured.

Friend argued that the model is just a snapshot in time and that it wouldn't be rearing up like a giant target all the time, therefore it should be obscured. I argued that I could see more than 50% of the body (albeit only half of its height) therefore by true LOS it was not obscured.

Thoughts?

According to the entry on Monstrous Creatures, "50% of their body as defined on page 16" must be obscured for MCs to gain a cover save. Page 16 deals with Infantry, and defining what is and is not part of the "body." The empty space around the Trygon's tail would not be its body.

So if you could still see more than 50% of the creature's actual body mass, it would not gain a cover save.

In the scenario given, a cover save would not have been appropriate.

Also they talk about the fact that the creature/person the model is representing would be moving and ducking behind cover and is already taken into consideration for the requirement for 50% to be obscurred.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Also they talk about the fact that the creature/person the model is representing would be moving and ducking behind cover and is already taken into consideration for the requirement for 50% to be obscurred.

Except that they're stating that infantry models, unlike MCs, do not need to be 50% obscured, and that's why.

The Monstrous Creature entry specifically says that MCs have to be 50% obscured, unlike infantry.

The reference to page 16 is simply for reference regarding what the "body" of a MC consists of.

The body of the trigon is primarily coiled around the base.

We usually play the part standing as about 1/3 of the model, as opposed to the 3/4 or so that it would be if height alone were used.

One might argue that the portion coiled around the base is its tail, which, according to page 16, is not part of the body for the purposes of drawing LOS.

So which part can you target?
You must allow for cover on almost every shot at raveners. . .

The optional tails that you can glue on are what we play as tails.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Hmm, I have a hard time imagining that one. To be able to see the entire rhino and still be in range of the melta, it seems that would have to be a big damn window...but if that was the case, how exactly is the rhino 50% obscurred if you can see the whole thing?

He was looking through the window as if you were standing at the door and looking out the window which you would be able to see anything outside of said window, not as if he was aiming from the tank and trying to make a shot through a window at which my Rhino was obscured.

kirsanth wrote:So which part can you target?
You must allow for cover on almost every shot at raveners. . .

The optional tails that you can glue on are what we play as tails.

Well, RAW, the Ravener's tail is not part of its body, and therefore cannot be considered for LOS. So even if its tail is in cover, it isn't.

That's how we play it, because like you said, if you considered the tail part of the body, Raveners would constantly get a cover save.

The spirit of the rule seems to be leaning towards vestigial or an "extra part" (such as Daemonettes) would not be considered part of the body, whereas a tail that's an integral part of the body (such as Raveners) would be considered part of the body, but RAW makes more sense in my opinion, from a balance standpoint anyway, and RAW seems to indicate that they are not.

My point is wondering where you start labeling a snake's body as a tail.

I understand that tails are not viable targets.

A trigon's body is what make up most of its model, including being coiled around the base--as everyone I have ever seen plays it.

Even so. . .tangent topic is tangential.

Yeah, but unlike a snake, Raveners and Trygons have pretty well-defined bodies above their "tails."

Where the tail starts to actually look like a body, that's where I'd personally start considering it one.

But again, this can be interpreted either way, and I have no problem playing it either way.

Kolath wrote:Slight corollary question since MCs require 50% just like vehicles. What is the answer to this scenario:

Trygon is standing behind a hill. 50% of the total height of the model is blocked. But since the majority of the mass is above its "waist" only about 20% of the body surface area is obscured.

Friend argued that the model is just a snapshot in time and that it wouldn't be rearing up like a giant target all the time, therefore it should be obscured. I argued that I could see more than 50% of the body (albeit only half of its height) therefore by true LOS it was not obscured.

Thoughts?

Sounds like the ideal scenario for reducing the cover save to 5+ and moving on to the rest of the game to me. I find that rule coming in handy far more often for Monstrous creatures and vehicles then for normal units.

Jack

SaintHazard wrote:Yeah, but unlike a snake, Raveners and Trygons have pretty well-defined bodies above their "tails."

Where the tail starts to actually look like a body, that's where I'd personally start considering it one.

But again, this can be interpreted either way, and I have no problem playing it either way.

Trygons don't really have tails since tails are appendages. They have a serpentine body. If we used your interpretation of where the body began, the Trygon would almost never be able to get cover.

And I highly doubt that anyone was thinking that 50% of the model meant 50% of the models mass when they wrote that rule. Especially since you'd have to take the model apart and weigh each section separately to determine that.

Trygons are Monstrous Creatures. They shouldn't regularly get cover saves.

That said, it'd be just as difficult to get into cover as, say, a LRBT or a Land Raider. Put enough blocking terrain in between it and the firer and it can be done.