Using a flamer template past close combat to get to units on the other side

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**Magnalon**

Long story short, I was playing against a Demon player who brought in, by deepstrike, the AP1 flamer units.

To paint a clear picture, imagine a straight line - on the left side of the line is his flamers; in the middle, is a close combat involving both my units and his; on the right, are my units about to charge that middle close combat fest. He states that since he is "technically aiming at the free squad on the right, he can use his flamers".

|Flamers|Close combat|My units

From my understanding, you cannot flame friendly units at all - since he's hitting his middle friendly units just to get to mine on the right, is this a legal move?

**Grundz**

I dont think so, the only time this is legal is when a blast scatters, you can't do it on purpose

**Eternal Newb**

Templates can't touch friendly units when shooting at a enemy. So no, it isn't legal.

**Kolath**

What if the positioning was such that it only hit enemy models, some of whom were engaged in close combat?

**don_mondo**

You cannot place the template so that it covers either friendly models (template rules, page 29) or models in hth (shooting into close combat, page 40), regardless of who the target is.

**SaintHazard**

Kolath wrote:What if the positioning was such that it only hit enemy models, some of whom were engaged in close combat?

Template weapons are unique in that anything under your template could be considered something at which you're aiming.

Therefore, I would say no, this is illegal, since you cannot willfully shoot into a close combat, regardless of whether or not you only hit enemy models.

Otherwise, I could say, "I'm going to fire my bolters into this combat, but I'm only going to hit enemy models."

Keep in mind that the rulebook states that a combat should be considered not two clean lines of infantry but a swirling mishmash of friend and foe. Blast markers are random enough to hit both when they scatter onto a combat, but flamer templates are more controlled.

**nosferatu1001**

In addition they are not AP1, they simply ignore armour saves.

**Gwar!**

nosferatu1001 wrote:In addition they are not AP1, they simply ignore armour saves.

A shame really, it would make the Glance against vehicles a lot nastier.

In any case, no, you can never place a Template or Marker deliberately in such a way as to hit models in Combat. They can only scatter there. Since Templates (usually) do not scatter, they cannot hit the guys in Combat.

**Eberious**

Before I say this I know how the Can't fire into combat rule goes.

But what if there were 3 players all against each other, could you then legally fire into that combat if you arent part of it?

Probably not, but worth asking. But then house rules can always kick in.

**nosferatu1001**

Given that to play a 3 player game requires a Houserule set to begin with, creating another really doesnt seem to be an issue.

**insaniak**

Eberious wrote:But what if there were 3 players all against each other, could you then legally fire into that combat if you arent part of it?

Yes. See the Broken Alliance scenario on pages 272-273 of the rulebook. Hits are randomised between the combatants.

**Eberious**

Cheers both, thought there might of been a mission where that are 3+ players all on different sides.

@insaniak, cheers, don't have the BRB back until tommorow so will check it out, cheers.

**Jaon**

There are clear defined rules for firing into a combat you are not a part of. What there isnt clear defined rules on is templating into a combat you are not a part of.

I would house rule it that you would get number of hits on either side to number of that players units under the template, but more likely it is randomised exactly like firing normal weapons into combat.

**insaniak**

The template simply changes the normal shooting rules by telling you that you hit a number of models equal to the number under the template instead of the number of to hit rolls that you rolled successfully.

So yes, it's randomised exactly as it would be for shooting any non-template weapon.