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Alright, so I've had this 2000 point Tau list for a while, and the last few times I've fielded it, it's either been a draw or I've lost. Now every single time I've gone up against MEqs (specifically, Chaos Space Marines), so I can discern just based on that where my killing power is lacking. I've decided to come up with an experimental Tau list designed to hunt MEqs, but I want to retain enough killing power to mow down horde-type armies as well, hence a few hybrid units. Lemme know what you all think.

First of all, the FIRST list:

1993 Points

Shas'O 168
CIB, TL Missile Pod, HW MT, HW Drone Controller, Stimulant Injector, Bonding Knife, Shield Drones (2)

10 Fire Warriors 220
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

10 Fire Warriors 220
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

10 Fire Warriors 100

3 Crisis Battlesuits 196
Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife
Plasma Rifle (3), Missile Pod (3), MT (3)

2 Crisis Battlesuits 100
Burst Cannon (2), Missile Pod (2), MT (2)

2 Crisis Battlesuits 100
Burst Cannon (2), Missile Pod (2), MT (2)

7 Pathfinders 219
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

Piranha 75
Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod

Piranha 75
Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod

Hammerhead 135
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

Hammerhead 170
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

2 Broadside Battlesuits 225
Team Leader, Stimulant Injector, Bonding Knife, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Shield Drone (2), Targeting Array (2)

And now, the SECOND list (the experimental one):

1997 Points

Shas'el 77
TL Fusion Blaster, Flamer, HW MT

10 Fire Warriors 235
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

10 Fire Warriors 115
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife

10 Fire Warriors 115
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife

3 Crisis Battlesuits 196
Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife
Plasma Rifle (3), Missile Pod (3), MT (3)

2 Crisis Battlesuits 124
Plasma Rifle (2), Missile Pod (2), MT (2)

2 Crisis Battlesuits 124
Plasma Rifle (2), Missile Pod (2), MT (2)

4 Pathfinders 183
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

4 Pathfinders 183
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

2 Piranhas 150
Fusion Blaster (2), Targeting Array (2), Disruption Pods (2)

Hammerhead 135
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

Hammerhead 135
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

2 Broadside Battlesuits 225
Team Leader, Stimulant Injector, Bonding Knife, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Shield Drone (2), Targeting Array (2)

Now a quick note: a few things I noticed were that 1) Burst Cannons killed all of one or two Marines the entire game. They were utterly useless against Plague Marines, and barely useful at all against regular CSM. The sheer volume of fire I was pumping out was useless when they were just bouncing off of his armor. The only Crisis Suit team that really did any lasting damage the whole game was the first one, in FireKnife configuration... so I've switched all Crisis Suits to FireKnives instead of FireStorms. Second, my Commander did exactly NOTHING, and died far too quickly to warrant a 168 point price tag, even with the drones... so I've decided to experiment and turn the Commander into a throwaway suicide tank hunter and see how it works. He's armed with a flamer because 1) it's dirt cheap and 2) it gives him some versatility against hordes. I've decided to retain the Warfish configuration for volume of fire, since nothing else I could do with the Devilfish would make them any more useful for hunting MEqs, and, like I said, I want to retain some anti-Horde firepower. I've switched my Railhead for a second Ionhead, since I noticed that the Railhead didn't hit jack gak with solid shot the entire game, and the subordnance killed maybe one or two Marines. The Ionhead, on the other hand, did some serious damage. The Broadsides should be all the long range anti-armor I need, hence the second Ionhead. The Piranhas have been grouped to allow me to split my Pathfinders - they became a prime target for my opponent early on and while they didn't run off the board (bonding knife FTW), they had to keep moving around (falling back, regrouping, falling back, regrouping, moving since they had no LOS after regrouping) and rarely got to fire their markerlights. Hence, two groups instead of one - less chance of both being run around, and it allows me to split my fire if necessary. Another thing that happened was that he'd kill six of my Fire Warriors, and they were done. Couldn't regroup. So I've added a Shas'ui and bonding knife to every unit of Fire Warriors.

Anyway, suggestions are welcome.

First list: One too many Warfish. I'd take one out, and use its points to upgrade the FireStorms to FKs.

Whaddya think about having the b-sides switch SMS to PRs help versus CSM?

As you cited, the PlasmaR's AP2 is what's going to help versus PlaguerMarines' FNP.

Second list:
I'd recombine the PathFs back into a large unit (I'd still try to keep two units though).

IonCans. I'm not good with MathHammer, but the submun round is supposed to be superior, but your experience shows that the PMs are too resistant. Just keep the PFinder markerlights available to deny Cover Saves ... but the IonCan's AP3 still won't bypass FNP.

So, I'd combine your lists:
Low point HQ
All FireKnives
2 full units of PFs, giving their WArfish to the FWs, and supply one add'l Warfish.
PlasmaRs for the b-sides
Ionheads? Sure.

Well the Ionheads are extremely killy, especially against Plague Marines. The biggest problem with the S6 submunition is that you wound on 3s against T5 Plague Marines, whereas the S7 ion cannon wounds on 2s.

I honestly don't think plasma rifles would be a good idea on the Broadsides, since nothing ever got within 24" of them the entire game - and even if something did, I'd be focusing their railguns on distant armored targets instead anyway... their SMS never fired once in the two games I played against CSMs. Just doesn't seem worth 10 points.

Two full units of PFs would be nice, but I'm wondering what I could nix to free up 96 points. I'm not getting rid of any Crisis Suits (actually wish I could take more), my HQ is about as cheap as he can possibly get (bar about an extra five points or so), and I honestly don't want to take fewer Fire Warriors (especially not 10 fewer) since they need the numbers to stand against bolter fire.

I could easily nix the target locks on the ionheads, since there are exactly no situations where they'd be firing the ion cannons at one target and the burst cannons at another. That's only 10 points freed up, though.

I just don't think the extra few Pathfinders are really going to be worth it, since 1) most armor saves among CSM are better than cover saves and 2) most things in this army that'll be doing a lot of shooting are already at BS4. Barring only the Crisis Suits. And that only requires a couple of markerlights to fix.

I'd switch 2 of the suits to PR/FB since you're really low on anti tank. And FB is nice vs FNP too

Some small stuff: 5, 9 and 13 are the nice numbers for taking ld checks. So I'd go for fw squads of 9 and pf squads of 5.

Ionheads are fine but you're running low on anti horde. Not sure how to fix that.

Last, I'm no fan of warfish. I prefer cheap fish mostly for aggressive tank shocking and blocking assaults.

Your last two points are answered very easily:

1) At 80 points, vanilla D'fish are far from cheap, and I wouldn't waste them simply blocking assaults when, if I've done my job properly, there's nothing to assault anyway.

2) D'fish put out some spectacular volume of fire. There's my anti-horde. 3 D'fish is essentially 21 S5AP5 shots at BS4, and if I need to, I can get another 60 S5AP5 BS3 shots from the Fire Warriors inside.

The Warfish ain't going anywhere.

As for the first two points, FB/PR is actually a combo I've tried before, I honestly wasn't a fan. Too situational, in my opinion. Missile pods, at S7, can pop most light armor, and for anything it can't (AV13 and up), my Broadsides come into play - or I use the inherent mobility of Crisis Suits to hit rear or side armor. Or I can just use my Piranhas... or my Commander... I could go on.

In my opinion, this list is not particularly lacking in anti-tank firepower. At least, no more so than it was before.

Also, you're right about 5 being a nicer number for Ld checks than 4. At the very least I feel like I should try to fit in two more PFs. I'll see about moving some points around.

SaintHazard wrote:I just don't think the extra few Pathfinders are really going to be worth it, since 1) most armor saves among CSM are better than cover saves and 2) most things in this army that'll be doing a lot of shooting are already at BS4. Barring only the Crisis Suits. And that only requires a couple of markerlights to fix.

Hmm. Okay. One set of PFs.

How's this? Any points saved, make a Team Leader upgrade for a Crisis Suit, add Target Array for said TeamL and thus you've one suit per unit with BS 4.

Mostly, the lists need very little, just minor tweaks, except for having FKs up the yang.

SaintHazard wrote:Your last two points are answered very easily:

1) At 80 points, vanilla D'fish are far from cheap, and I wouldn't waste them simply blocking assaults when, if I've done my job properly, there's nothing to assault anyway.

That's assuming that you can shoot and kill anything that comes at you before it can assault you? That is highly unlikely, unless you play in a metagame that takes 3 turns to get into assault range

As for warfish as anti horde, 360 points for 21 S5AP5 shots is very expensive, almost twice as expensive as any other Tau unit per shot. I'm not saying that warfish are unplayable but not every fish has to be a warfish.

And as for the PR/FB suits, it's 3 shots that can kill a Plague Marine without FNP rolls, I thought that was what you were looking for?

Brothererekose wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:I just don't think the extra few Pathfinders are really going to be worth it, since 1) most armor saves among CSM are better than cover saves and 2) most things in this army that'll be doing a lot of shooting are already at BS4. Barring only the Crisis Suits. And that only requires a couple of markerlights to fix.

Hmm. Okay. One set of PFs.

How's this? Any points saved, make a Team Leader upgrade for a Crisis Suit, add Target Array for said TeamL and thus you've one suit per unit with BS 4.

Mostly, the lists need very little, just minor tweaks, except for having FKs up the yang.

Targeting Array on one Crisis Suit isn't a bad idea.

One set of PFs is.

Remember, I want to lessen my chances of these guys running off the board (or being run around every turn by morale checks).

Two units of PFs is going to do that.

Shrubs wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Your last two points are answered very easily:

1) At 80 points, vanilla D'fish are far from cheap, and I wouldn't waste them simply blocking assaults when, if I've done my job properly, there's nothing to assault anyway.

That's assuming that you can shoot and kill anything that comes at you before it can assault you? That is highly unlikely, unless you play in a metagame that takes 3 turns to get into assault range

As for warfish as anti horde, 360 points for 21 S5AP5 shots is very expensive, almost twice as expensive as any other Tau unit per shot. I'm not saying that warfish are unplayable but not every fish has to be a warfish.

And as for the PR/FB suits, it's 3 shots that can kill a Plague Marine without FNP rolls, I thought that was what you were looking for?

Fair enough. My Warfish have been super killy, though, and you can't just look at them from a point-to-shot standpoint. They also protect the squishy Fire Warriors. My opponent has some serious issues popping my armor, so if I can keep my army killy without disembarking it, it's a good situation.

And yeah, I want shots that will deny his PM FNP, but his PM are just one unit, and two shots at 36" that give FNP are better, in my opinion, than one shot at 12" that does not. I don't want to tailor Crisis Suits to kill just one of his units.

I will just say that in my personal experience, every (and I mean every) single time I have fielded two ionheads instead of 1 rail/1ion, I've wished I hadn't after I played the actual game.

Jokorey wrote:I will just say that in my personal experience, every (and I mean every) single time I have fielded two ionheads instead of 1 rail/1ion, I've wished I hadn't after I played the actual game.

Interesting.

Can you give me any more details on this?

FYI, I've just modeled a second turret for my Railhead, so it's not going away forever, it'll still be interchangable.