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Hey Fantasy Dakkaites!

For a few years now I have played IG in 40k. Recently I have grown somewhat tired of 40k and have decided to get into Fantasy. The army of choice for me is the Empire. I have the codex and have read it through, but given the new edition and such, I am at something of a loss on what is good and what is not.

In short, do any of you have any suggestions on what works for Empire and what does not? I am looking to create a more shooty army, but one with a strong line of state troops as well.

Many Thanks!

Big blocks of ranked Swordsmen or Halberiers with detachments of the other (I prefer Blocks of Swordsmen with Halberd detachments, something like 30 Swords, 15 Halberds) are nice.

2 Cannons and 2 Mortars should really be in nearly every list (at least!).

Naked engineers, or engineers with Pidgeon bombs are cheap and useful.

Wizards/Wizard Lords are actually fairly useful.

Blocks of 10 or so Knights with Great Weapons are surprisingly decent, despite what lots of people may say about them.

OK by the numbers...

For Lords and heroes...The current faves is an arch lector (on war altar is nice) plus the lvl4 wizard (although I get just a level 2)....the arch lector has the advantage of ld 9 plus the additional 2 dispel dice plus 2 prayers, the war altar gives you the lore of light 1 spell innate ability..quite a bargain, and he can get armor and great weapons and such..BUT, he is mainly a support lord..do NOT make the mistake of sending the War altar into combat unaided into a full blown enemy combat unit...

The lvl 4 wizard is there for obvious magic stuff, especially the powerful deathstar killing spells like purple sun, dwellers below, final transmutation, etc...but be warned magic is much more fickle in 8th ed...it's not my preference but I do see how it can swing games if you get the spells in...

The general of the empire is another lord worth considering, as you get a cheaper ld 9 as well as the magic banner capacity for a state troop, as well as a hero level fighter who can get 100 pts of magic items (I like the crown of command plus defensive items, thus giving the unit he joins stubborn)...the last on my list is the grandmaster knight, as I feel he is quite expensive for what he can bring in this edition vs last edition..

for heroes, the regular warrior priest (free dispel dice) plus the obligatory BSB are very good choices...the engineer also improved a lot since he can now also improve the helstorm and helblaster. I like the level 2 wizard though since I normally do not get a wizard lord.

for core choices, I like all state troops, although for many swordsmen are the best due to the parry save, better WS and initiative. Halberdiers are still good, and despite the extra rank which can fight spearmen I feel are just the same. There is some debate on the size of the unit (I like at least 30 models) on both the parent unit and fighting detachments (on how many models should comprise it...I feel 10-15 is still the best for hth detachments), but I like detachments as they represent the "flavor" of the empire army. Missile detachments I feel have weakened as BS shooting got less effective due to - modifiers from cover saves, despite the fact that extra rank of shooting, but I feel large missile units (handgunners plus a champion with a hochland I like) can be good (albeit expensive, empire pointswise), and in the 1 game 1 have tried them a detachment of archers make a good screen as moving cover. The basic knights (even inner circle) are not as effective now due to numerous cheap steadfast infantry, BUT they still have a role as heavy armor hammer units..I am going to try out large units of them soon (the GW versions look to be more appealing now)....and finally flagellants still have their same role as tarpits (assuming they don't wiped out fast)..

On specials, war machines have received a great buff in 8th ed...get at least 1 per 500-600 pts....cannons are good, but mortars and helstorm got especially good since the blast rules are like 40k (no partials!)...helblasters are bleh ever since they needed to roll to hit...greatswords have gotten a huge buff and they have done really well, the step up role making them especially deadly in the return strikes. I like pistoliers too, and the outriders I have not yet tried....

On the rares, the Steam Tank is still very powerful, as not many have gotten the lore of metal in my games..still, their weakness is STILL the same, at least versus cannons they still need to be wounded on a 4+ (wherein before it was a 2+). The helstorm and helblaster I have given my comments above...

Anyway, try them out..the empire is a real combined arms choice, and you should do Ok in the painting them as you have an IG army (like me) and are used to painting hordes. I recommend to collect all the unit types, as I feel there is no real lousy unit in the empire book.

Good luck!

freddieyu1 basically summed it all up, the only thing i will add is warrior priests are a must have with any of your hammer units like greatswords/knights as hatred is amazing also the +1 dispel comes in handy now magics so strong.

Wow! Thanks for the great replies, much more thorough than I expected!

I am glad to hear that the Empire really works like a combined arms army, as that is what I have always enjoyed and attempted to emulate in my 40k IG armies.

A noob question for you guys though. I am something of a shooting nut and I understand that Fantasy is not 40k, still I cannot help but feel attracted to lots of artillery and shooty units. I know I cannot make an all shooter army and that I need a good deal of melee guys, but how much shooty is too much? I want to be somewhat competitive, hence the question.

At minimum, you'll probably want 2 cannons and a mortar, preferably 2 mortars. Personally, that's the limit of what I field in ~2400 point games, but taking up 3 of each is not uncommon.

Haven't got a feel for Helblaster or Helstorm warmachines since I never field them, but add one of each for flavor if you want.

Regular shooting (ie, BS-based shooting) is somewhat lackluster in 8th, and while you could fill up your Core with Handgunners, I think you're better off running melee Core units.

Hmm is it the new rules that make halberds better? I recall in 7th every person I met always said halberds was the worst option for a parent unit.

Anyways yup artillery and relatively cheap on par troops. Plus core knights are good if near naked to support blocks

Halbards are terrible, for empire anyway.

it isn't the rules(those haven't changed) it's the fact you are paying a good number of points for a WS3, T3 Str3(4), Armor 6+ model.

for the same price you could get a WS4, T3, armor 5+ model with a 6+ ward save in CC.


anything but Halbards for your state troops. if you MUST run them run them as a 10 man detachment so they can hit a flank.


Spears and Swords are best.

50 spearmen in a 10x5 formation will fight in 4 ranks(3 for horde +1 for spears)

Swordsmen are good because of the 6+ wardsave they get in CC and the pip in WS.


Steamtanks are all shades of awsome. T10 so most enemies will need 6+ to wound. watch out for Purple Sun and Pit of Shades as they will auto kill the Stank.


Cannons are awsome too. Mortars are better now that there are no partials and big blocks are common.


My reccomendation is build up a pretty basic force to start with. mostly core and a couple of heros. maybe a couple of captains and wizards.

once you hit the 2.5k mark you will want a General, Wizard lord, and 2-3 captains and wizards. the idea is lots of cheap heros and 1-2 expensive lords.

I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet but a unit of Greatswords in horde formation maybe 40 strong or so with a Warrior priest with them is mighty. He gives them hatred so you can re-roll all missed WS4 to-hits plus you have great weapons so you are wounding with S5. The unit comes stubborn naturally and has a decent armor save. Very good hammer unit in my opinion. Other than that take state troops with sword and shield or halberds for your anvil units. 3 Cannons and 3 Mortars are great too of course.

Exodus2013 wrote:I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet but a unit of Greatswords in horde formation maybe 40 strong or so with a Warrior priest with them is mighty. He gives them hatred so you can re-roll all missed WS4 to-hits plus you have great weapons so you are wounding with S5. The unit comes stubborn naturally and has a decent armor save. Very good hammer unit in my opinion. Other than that take state troops with sword and shield or halberds for your anvil units. 3 Cannons and 3 Mortars are great too of course.

Hmm thats a bit costly though? +500 points is quite a bit for a T3 unit.

I could get 3 cannons and 2 mortars and then a griffon banner for that

kenshin620 wrote:

Exodus2013 wrote:I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet but a unit of Greatswords in horde formation maybe 40 strong or so with a Warrior priest with them is mighty. He gives them hatred so you can re-roll all missed WS4 to-hits plus you have great weapons so you are wounding with S5. The unit comes stubborn naturally and has a decent armor save. Very good hammer unit in my opinion. Other than that take state troops with sword and shield or halberds for your anvil units. 3 Cannons and 3 Mortars are great too of course.

Hmm thats a bit costly though? +500 points is quite a bit for a T3 unit.

I could get 3 cannons and 2 mortars and then a griffon banner for that

35 models can be fine...you do not really need to have all the ranks full 4 since with a horde unit you will rarely be able to hit with all models in BSB, and steadfast does not matter as the GS are already stubborn...

Well take the great swords and the artillery! haha they are both battlefield gold.

Grey Templar wrote:Halbards are terrible, for empire anyway.

it isn't the rules(those haven't changed) it's the fact you are paying a good number of points for a WS3, T3 Str3(4), Armor 6+ model.

for the same price you could get a WS4, T3, armor 5+ model with a 6+ ward save in CC.

anything but Halbards for your state troops. if you MUST run them run them as a 10 man detachment so they can hit a flank.

Spears and Swords are best.

You're paying the same price for halberds and spearmen, and they are identical in everything but their weapons. The only difference is that one gets an extra rank if charged, the other is St 4.

Wait arent swordsmen 1 point more than halberds?

well they're all the same with shields so thats moot. more protection is key

sebster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Halbards are terrible, for empire anyway.

it isn't the rules(those haven't changed) it's the fact you are paying a good number of points for a WS3, T3 Str3(4), Armor 6+ model.

for the same price you could get a WS4, T3, armor 5+ model with a 6+ ward save in CC.

anything but Halbards for your state troops. if you MUST run them run them as a 10 man detachment so they can hit a flank.

Spears and Swords are best.

You're paying the same price for halberds and spearmen, and they are identical in everything but their weapons. The only difference is that one gets an extra rank if charged, the other is St 4.

there is 1 thing state troops do NOT do. and that is kill things.

State troops are an Anvil upon which you crush the enemy.


and 40 attacks with spears will kill more then 30 attacks at Str4. and 30 attacks at WS4 with a 6+ ward will kill more then 30 attacks at Str4.

The spears with 40 attacks against a standard unit of WS3 OR 4, T3, 6+ armor save will hit 20, wound 10 and kill 8.5 because the opponent has light armor and gets a normal 6+ armor save. The 30 Halberds at S4 will hit 15, wound 10 and kill 10 because S4 takes the save away. How do you figure the Spearmen are better then the Halberds?

Edit: Not only this but if you take them in horde formation as a unit of 40 the spearmen will start losing some of those attacks once they start dieing. The halberds won't start losing their attacks till a full rank of 10 is gone.

Yeah we have argued about spears/halberds and halberds come up top especially against t4 models, i prefer parent unit of halberdiers with a detatchment of swords, with swords as the detatchment they will survive longer and will keep there 2ranks to count as disrupting.

Right on. Swordsmen or Halberds are the best choices and it depends on if you want a little more killy or a little more survivability. But sadly spearmen are the poorest choice for Empire, they only appear to be the best because you get to attack with a full 4 ranks in Horde formation.

Halberds can make T5 models sweat, too, spears really don't. They're at 100% on the charge, their effectiveness is deteriorated by casualties more slowly, and even the fluff supports big halberd blocks.

No one's mentioned Pistoliers or Outriders yet :(

Even me, a spearman fanatic has to admit that Halberdiers and swordsmen trump spears in Fantasy.

to the OP: Flagellants are an awesome addition to an army as Free Companies are great as detachments.

Grey Templar wrote:there is 1 thing state troops do NOT do. and that is kill things.

State troops are an Anvil upon which you crush the enemy.

Well duh. But we're comparing spearmen and halberds here, which are completely identical in terms of cost and survivability, the only that differentiates them is their ability to inflict wounds on the enemy. Well, unless you're thinking about spending a point per model on shields for your spearmen, then there would be a point of difference, but who out there is spending a point per model on shields instead of just taking more guys?

As such, all that matters is their ability to inflict wounds back.

and 40 attacks with spears will kill more then 30 attacks at Str4. and 30 attacks at WS4 with a 6+ ward will kill more then 30 attacks at Str4.

Nonsense. First up, if all that matters is their ability to absorb damage, why are you using horde formations, and not deploying 5 wide to ensure steadfast?

Second up, it depends on their opponent. Facing WS3, T3 enemies with no saves (as an example) a 5 wide block of spears will have 15 attacks, inflicting an average 3.75 kills. A 5 wide block of halberds will have ten attacks, inflicting 3.33 kills. Change that up to give the target light armour and shields and it switches in favour of the halberds, 2.50 for the spears compared to 2.78 for the halberds. If the target is T4 with armour, it comes out dead even, but if the enemy has any armour it swings back in favour of the halberds.

And yes, the swordsman is the preferred option to either spearmen or halberds, but you'd hope so considering he costs an extra point per model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exodus2013 wrote:Right on. Swordsmen or Halberds are the best choices and it depends on if you want a little more killy or a little more survivability. But sadly spearmen are the poorest choice for Empire, they only appear to be the best because you get to attack with a full 4 ranks in Horde formation.

Actually, if you're going to go for horde formation they're the poorest choice. At a standard wide, you get three ranks of attacks with spears, compared to 2 ranks of attacks with halberds - you get 50% more attacks which manages to offset the St4 advantage in some instances. In horde formation it's 4 ranks vs 3 ranks, only a 33% increase in attacks, suddenly the only situation where spears were preferable (vs an unarmoured T3 opponent) it's now a breakeven between spears and halberds, and the former breakeven (against a T4, unarmoured opponent) becomes an advantage to the halberd.

In my batrep versus the orcs and G, I took a general and had my halberd block carry the razor standard....they did great in a fight versus my opponent's black orcs, as the fighting was in an awkward position on around 2 models were only in bsb (including my general)..needless to say the wounds completely bypassed the heavy armor of the orcs, and I managed to break the unit and run him down....

sebster wrote:
Second up, it depends on their opponent. Facing WS3, T3 enemies with no saves (as an example) a 5 wide block of spears will have 15 attacks, inflicting an average 3.75 kills. A 5 wide block of halberds will have ten attacks, inflicting 3.33 kills. Change that up to give the target light armour and shields and it switches in favour of the halberds, 2.50 for the spears compared to 2.78 for the halberds. If the target is T4 with armour, it comes out dead even, but if the enemy has any armour it swings back in favour of the halberds.

Unless you're planning to cut up your opponents models into thirds and quarters the states are pretty much the same. It's about personal preference. Play around with the different combos and work it out for yourself which unit suits your play style. There is no direct right or wrong way to choose this.

It spears works for you, awesome as. If not try halberds. If they don't float your boat either try playing a different army =P

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:

sebster wrote:
Second up, it depends on their opponent. Facing WS3, T3 enemies with no saves (as an example) a 5 wide block of spears will have 15 attacks, inflicting an average 3.75 kills. A 5 wide block of halberds will have ten attacks, inflicting 3.33 kills. Change that up to give the target light armour and shields and it switches in favour of the halberds, 2.50 for the spears compared to 2.78 for the halberds. If the target is T4 with armour, it comes out dead even, but if the enemy has any armour it swings back in favour of the halberds.

Unless you're planning to cut up your opponents models into thirds and quarters the states are pretty much the same. It's about personal preference. Play around with the different combos and work it out for yourself which unit suits your play style. There is no direct right or wrong way to choose this.

It spears works for you, awesome as. If not try halberds. If they don't float your boat either try playing a different army =P

Wait so Swordsmen, the backbone from what most veteran empire swear by, dont count?

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Unless you're planning to cut up your opponents models into thirds and quarters the states are pretty much the same. It's about personal preference. Play around with the different combos and work it out for yourself which unit suits your play style. There is no direct right or wrong way to choose this.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense, dude. There's only one point difference between spears and halberds - their ability to inflict casualties. Arguing that their only point of difference doesn't matter and then deeming the only difference to be personal preference isn't a very clear line of argument.

The thing is, in the last edition it really down to preference, probably with a slight advantage to the spears. But in 8th you've got two ranks fighting, which doubled the number of ranks that halberds can bring into the fighting, while only increasing the number of spear attacks by 50%. In the old system you spears were only Str 3, but had twice as many attacks as halbers, now they've only got 50% more attacks, but the difference between Str 3 and Str 4 is just as great.

@ kenshin. I agree that swordsman are the backbones of an empire army and I myself use them in big blocks but the argument so far was spears vs halberds so that's what i commented on.


and @ sebster. That quote is in regards to the statistics presented earlier. The difference between them is something like .4 models. Round it off spears kill 3, halberds kill 3. So naturally unless you're chopping up models to make up the other point whatever it depends on your play style and how you use them.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:and @ sebster. That quote is in regards to the statistics presented earlier. The difference between them is something like .4 models. Round it off spears kill 3, halberds kill 3. So naturally unless you're chopping up models to make up the other point whatever it depends on your play style and how you use them.

That's not really how it works though. Sure, you aren't going to remove .4 of a model, but you're also not always going to be removing three models. It's dice rolling, and the average is merely indicative of the range of results that are most likely. That .4 means halberds are more likely to score 4 kills than spears, and less likely to only score 2 kills.

But you're right that the difference in the two units isn't huge, considering neither unit kills a whole lot in general, and both units are primarily anchors. I mean, if all my state troops were spearmen I'd happily take them as spearmen, I wouldn't be converting 40 dudes for the sake of a slightly better kill ratio on an anchor unit. But if I was starting out and had a big block of state troops to assemble, halberds are the better choice.