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I've had a squad of guardians since i started gaming, but i never really found a use for them. I'm generally happy with a squad of rangers and a squad of Dire Avengers. So can somebody people please tell me what I should use them for besides meat shields and objective holders, specifically against orks?

You should use them to hold your shelves in place.

They have decent anti-infantry firepower, they are a decently priced scoring unit, with an avatar they can be a real threat, hard to remove with firepower and they can put out the hurt in close range.

They are a staple unit in a footdar list, not as useful in a mechdar list.

80 points. Think of them like grots. Stick 'em in cover next to an objective. Do that once or twice for your home objectives and you can spend the other 1340 points of your army on wraithlords, fire prisms, and jetbike-mounted warlock council death star squads.

Except 10 grots only cost, what, 40 points?

So 10 Guardians (minus the heavy weapon) are 80 pts. Oh well. Pretty much everything that's Eldar is expensive; we just need to deal with it for now.

A few suggestions:
Give them an EML and good sight lines. Possibly with Guide.
Get/use an Avatar.
Give them a Warlock with Embolden and use them as Farseer support.
Use them as extra Farseer wounds.
Use them as an extra Bright Lance.
Use them as an excuse for a scoring transport.
Storm Guardians. Anti-infantry with flamers, anti-tank with melta.

EDIT: Clarification of 1st line.

Storm Guardians are awesome.
2 flamers, accompanied by a destructor warlock will put out comparable fire power to 10 man Dire Avenger Squads, for about 25 points cheaper! They also get 3 attacks on the charge, and the warlock hits vehicles at s9- this makes them more capable in close combat than Dire Avengers are. I play them in almost every game I play, and they regularly outperform my 10 Bladestorming Avengers. I wouldn't trust them with melta however, as they are only bs3. With flamers they don't have to roll to hit. They need a Wave Serpent though, if you want to live long enough to deliver those flamers.

I still use my Guardian Defender squad every now and then. Generally only when I have 100 points to spend, and feel light on scoring units. If I use em to sit on a backfield objective, preferably a building or bunker, but cover works as well. Then they basically shoot at random things with the missile launcher. 48 inch range is solid, and scatter largely mitigates their bs3 and ap4 is nice to have against certain armies. You also have the s8 shot if you are facing an all mech army. If something wanders close to them, they can unload their catapults to decent effect.

They've been growing on me a bit and I'm starting to use them about as much as Rangers / Pathfinders. I find that the eldar missile launcher tends to wrack up more damage than 5 long rifles, and they can defend themselves better when things get close. They both get mauled by flamers, but the Guardians go to ground for a 3+ cover save which isn't bad with 10 bodies. They also generally come out 20 points cheaper than Pathfinders, which makes them easier to fit into a list.

At the end of the day though. I almost always run small guardian jetbike squads instead of Defenders or Pathfinders for cheap objective takers. The ability to keep up with the rest of a mech list, and a 24 inch turbo boost move to contest objectives is far better than a static objective holder.

cannon fodder. Thats what i use them as.
I would sasy "Get infront of my most important Troops Guardians! Also you cost 8 points you are kinda worthless!"
"yes sir!"
Next turn.
"what? All the guardians died?"
Basically they are useless if they are not storm Guardians.

Even Storm Guardians are pretty worthless because they lack grenades.

willydstyle wrote:Even Storm Guardians are pretty worthless because they lack grenades.

You know how wrong i believe that is
but considering i rarely use eldar. What the hell do i know? I'm being completely serious. I find guardians good frontline soldiers to get killed off!

You rarely use Eldar. I've been playing Eldar generally at least once a week for the past two years, including in tournaments. I've used Storm Guardians extensively in every list, as their triple-flamer action can be devastating against doomed units. However, I realize that they are too fragile, and too expensive for CC, and basically are a throw-away unit.

willydstyle wrote:You rarely use Eldar. I've been playing Eldar generally at least once a week for the past two years, including in tournaments. I've used Storm Guardians extensively in every list, as their triple-flamer action can be devastating against doomed units. However, I realize that they are too fragile, and too expensive for CC, and basically are a throw-away unit.

guardians are cool looking though. Even though they suck :*(

I dunno... my girlfriend doesn't like their cone heads

willydstyle wrote:I dunno... my girlfriend doesn't like their cone heads

You have a girlfriend? damn now that makes me want to get one.
ANYWAY! I feel like sticking a Warlock in there just for kicks and noone can hit the squad thanks to his powers.

could just convert them to avengers. i was plaing on doing that with my guardians.

Luna Havoc wrote:could just convert them to avengers. i was plaing on doing that with my guardians.

Your brilliant! How come in all my years in gaming i have never thought of that
That makes me go

Assuming you have an avatar on the field, you're spending 200 points in storm guardians for either 20 fearless dudes with 60 I4 attacks on the charge and a perpetual 5+ cover save or 20 fearless dudes with 60 I5 attacks on the charge.

Sounds obvious to me.

60 attacks with no plasma grenades, at WS3 and Str3.

It *is* obvious:

obviously bad.

willydstyle wrote:Except 10 grots only cost, what, 40 points?

It's not the Eldar's fault that they can't do anything as well as orks (Ok except maybe shoot worth a crap.) My point is that they're cheap and not good for much and should be treated as such.

I like guardians I have a whole 2,000 pts Guardian Force with 2 Falcon Tanks And 4 hvy weapon squads, supported by Harliquins.

Guardian Unit

4 Guardians, carapace armor, shuruken catapult and pistol, chain combat execory
1 Guardian carapace armor, melta-gun w/ chain attachment

A great unit if used right, but I guess the codex's have changed over the yrs and even these troops my beloved Sam Hain Raiders are not useful or just dropped because everyone love cheesy Aspects.

willydstyle wrote:It *is* obvious:

obviously bad.

math time!

Against marines out of cover with +1WS/+1I

guardians fire pistols and kill 1 and charge in and kill 4 (so a combat squad is dead straight away without recourse). If it's a 10-man tac squad with a fist, the remaining dudes kill 1 or 2. A couple turns later, the marines are wiped with very acceptable casualties. If the marines charge them, it's the same result with just a couple more guardians out of a fearless mob of 21. In short, storm guardians can blow through marines like a fire hose through tissue paper.

Of course, you could keep on stacking stuff against them (they suffer a round of bolter fire first, etc.), but it takes an awful lot to get the storm guardians to lose. Of course, these numbers look even better when you're using them against GEq.

I guess if your definition of "bad" includes it ONLY kills hordes and tac marines by the bucketload, then yes, they would be obviously bad.

So, you plan on just teleporting those Guardians into assault with the Marines?

Sure, that would be awesome. Unfortunately, they have to cross a wall of death that is bolters. 10 Marines with only one turn of fire kill 9 of those advancing Storm Guardians. 11 Guardians vs 10 Marines is a pretty gakky match up.

Asherian Command wrote:

Luna Havoc wrote:could just convert them to avengers. i was planing on doing that with my guardians.

Your brilliant! How come in all my years in gaming i have never thought of that
That makes me go

lol glad to help

DarknessEternal wrote:So, you plan on just teleporting those Guardians into assault with the Marines?

Sure, that would be awesome. Unfortunately, they have to cross a wall of death that is bolters. 10 Marines with only one turn of fire kill 9 of those advancing Storm Guardians. 11 Guardians vs 10 Marines is a pretty gakky match up.

1.) they get fleet

2.) if you rather, you can give them a 5+ cover. Then those 10 marines kill 6. The remaining 14 storm guardians and warlock kill 1 with pistols and then kill 5 marines for 4 guardians killed. The next turn, the 10 guardians and warlock against 4 marines sees 2 dead marines to 2 guardians. The next turn, the guardians wipe the marines with just under half their original strength.

And this is against 10 marines with a fist in a perfect circumstances. Seriously, do the math before blanket denouncing something.

I'll take a squad just to hang back on my table edge in cover and hug an objective. Similar to grots, but if something comes their way, they have some sort of defense.

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:So, you plan on just teleporting those Guardians into assault with the Marines?

Sure, that would be awesome. Unfortunately, they have to cross a wall of death that is bolters. 10 Marines with only one turn of fire kill 9 of those advancing Storm Guardians. 11 Guardians vs 10 Marines is a pretty gakky match up.

1.) they get fleet

2.) if you rather, you can give them a 5+ cover. Then those 10 marines kill 6. The remaining 14 storm guardians and warlock kill 1 with pistols and then kill 5 marines for 4 guardians killed. The next turn, the 10 guardians and warlock against 4 marines sees 2 dead marines to 2 guardians. The next turn, the guardians wipe the marines with just under half their original strength.

And this is against 10 marines with a fist in a perfect circumstances. Seriously, do the math before blanket denouncing something.

Sure, I did the math. You did not.

14 Guardians have 3 attacks, hit on a 4, wound on a 5, and get saved on a 3. That's 14*3/2/3/3=2.33. Throw in the Warlock for another .416, let's go ahead and round the whole thing up to 3. Which is 2 less than you assumed. After the first turn, the Guardians lose more guys than the Marines each turn.

If you did the correct math, you'd see the Marines survive that assault with survivors, the Guardians are wiped out.

This all represents a stupidly implausible scenario of the Guardians getting fired upon only once. Thanks to 24" bolters, those Guardians are facing at least one volley from 12-24" and one from < 12". Those Marines are also likely in cover, since they didn't have to move at all. So they get to kill Guardians in assault before the Guardians even swing.

Here's the real kicker, those 10 Marines are 170 points. Your 20 man Guardian squad with Warlock and power are 200.

20 man Guardian squads are stupidly pointless. They can't get anywhere fast enough to avoid the trivial amount of firepower needed to evaporate them. 11+1 Storm Guardions in a Serpent would at least get the chance to bring it's sad and pathetic offense to bear. No one would notice much though, since Guardians are puke.

The other problem with the huge fearless storm mob, is that there are more things out there than marines.

Those guardians are really still really good at dying to dakka preds, thunderfire cannons, pie plates in general... you get the idea. At least defenders can take a heavy weapon to shoot back with! Storm Guardians are stuck marching up the field whethering all the long range anti infantry the enemy has to offer, THEN they get into bolter (possibly rapid fire) range, THEN they have to kill the marines in combat.

I have found 3 template storm guardians to be rather OK though, and about as good as Dire Avengers.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:So, you plan on just teleporting those Guardians into assault with the Marines?

Sure, that would be awesome. Unfortunately, they have to cross a wall of death that is bolters. 10 Marines with only one turn of fire kill 9 of those advancing Storm Guardians. 11 Guardians vs 10 Marines is a pretty gakky match up.

1.) they get fleet

2.) if you rather, you can give them a 5+ cover. Then those 10 marines kill 6. The remaining 14 storm guardians and warlock kill 1 with pistols and then kill 5 marines for 4 guardians killed. The next turn, the 10 guardians and warlock against 4 marines sees 2 dead marines to 2 guardians. The next turn, the guardians wipe the marines with just under half their original strength.

And this is against 10 marines with a fist in a perfect circumstances. Seriously, do the math before blanket denouncing something.

Sure, I did the math. You did not.

14 Guardians have 3 attacks, hit on a 4, wound on a 5, and get saved on a 3. That's 14*3/2/3/3=2.33. Throw in the Warlock for another .416, let's go ahead and round the whole thing up to 3. Which is 2 less than you assumed. After the first turn, the Guardians lose more guys than the Marines each turn.

If you did the correct math, you'd see the Marines survive that assault with survivors, the Guardians are wiped out.

This all represents a stupidly implausible scenario of the Guardians getting fired upon only once. Thanks to 24" bolters, those Guardians are facing at least one volley from 12-24" and one from < 12". Those Marines are also likely in cover, since they didn't have to move at all. So they get to kill Guardians in assault before the Guardians even swing.

Here's the real kicker, those 10 Marines are 170 points. Your 20 man Guardian squad with Warlock and power are 200.

20 man Guardian squads are stupidly pointless. They can't get anywhere fast enough to avoid the trivial amount of firepower needed to evaporate them. 11+1 Storm Guardions in a Serpent would at least get the chance to bring it's sad and pathetic offense to bear. No one would notice much though, since Guardians are puke.

Trivial firepower can certainly not evaporate 20 guardians. They will have cover, so unless you have a thunderfire etc, it will be incredibly hard to wipe them from range. Also, how many marine-lists sit and shoot at 24" with bolters? I certainly havn't seen a marine foot-list since 4th.

I do agree that storm guardians are not the way to go on foot though. Normal guardians are much better for a foot list IMO, they can aid with some shots from their heavy weapon and they have pretty decent firepower when the enemy get's closer.

In a footlist, you will probably have an avatar and harlies for counter-attack anyway, while long range firepower might be lacking. Eldrad will probably also be close, so you can doom the most threatening target and fill it with shurikens. With doom, 20 guardians kill 5 marines in a volley, add guide as well and you're looking at a very reduced marine squad.