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I currently have 3 Heavy Jack bodies and a few leftover bitz at my disposal and I was wondering if you guys could tell me what you think about a few of Cygnar' heavy 'Jacks.
I'm thinking about building 3 of these:
- Cyclone
- Defender
- Hammersmith
- Ol' Rhody
- Triumph
I have pretty much every Caster except Epic Stryker and I was hoping you guys could tell me which of these 'Jacks you like and would recomend.

Do we have any info on what the Triumph will do? He's not a character 'Jack, is he? Because I have enough parts lying around to build him as well. ^^

Triumph is a character jack.

Hes just a upgraded defender that costs more.

From your list I would recomend that you build:
- Cyclone - He is a great control jack when marshalled by the ATGM+UA. Firing 2d3 runeshots each turn AND the habillity to put dow 2 POW 12 templates give him great utility;
- Defender - Or "staple" jack, again I usually marshal him to the ATGM allowing him to shoot at 20" or giving him 15+4d6 on a crit with 3d6 to hit (if I bring Arlan along), make for a very scary ranged option, coupled with his shock hammer that you can use to good effect when he finnally gets into mellee.
- Ol' Rhowdy - Our best character jack, he is a very focus eficient jack, even if I've never used him, I just find the Stormclad better for just 1 point more.

I don't recommend the following jacks from your list:
- Hammersmith - Speed 4 really kills him for me, some people swear by him if you use him with Kraye, but since I don't own Kraye yet I've never tried them toghether;
- Triumph - He is a waste of points. 2 points more for a worse Defender? No thanks.

Appart from those that you've listed I would also recommend that you get:
- Stormclad - Our best mellee jack, period. Sure it costs 10 pts, but if you bring SBs along he will get a free focus every turn and he can scrap every single jack / warbeast in the game.
- Ironclad - For those times when you just need a cheap beatstick, he is just 7 pts and he can also help clear up lanes for an assassination run thanks to his star attack.

Well, those are my recomendations, make of them what you will.

Thing is, I have 3 'jacks lying around. A plastic Heavy box, a metal Defender and a Nomad a friend gave me. But the sword broke off and I can't use him as a nomad anymore. So I was thinking I could use him as a base for another Jack, since I'll have some spare parts from the plastic kit. And since the Nomad looks a bit more shabby and old I thought it would make a perfect fit for a character 'Jack.
And I still have an Inqusitor-Scale riot shield lying around.

Can you give me more info about the Triumph? He has to be good at something.

Defender with shield instead of hammer. If he stands still he can shoot stealth. I think the gun is magical.

I think he is workable, but not an auto-include.
If your local crew run a lot of stealth or if you use Sloan or Siege, he has worth.

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Can you give me more info about the Triumph? He has to be good at something.

No, he actually isn't.

He costs 2 more points than a normal Defender, loses the shockhammer and has +2 armour (from the shield), has +1 RAT (his only positive point). His gun is exactly the same as the Defenders gun, except that he can see Stealthed units if he doesn't move and can spend a focus to give his gun a 3" AOE. His gun is also not magical so doesn't even get that.

Also, and probably worse of all, since he is a character jack, he can't be marshalled...

Just turn the Nomad into another Defender, you get more out of 2 Defenders than from Defender + Triumph.

Triumph has less worth with siege than pretty much any other caster because Siege has mage sight.

PhantomViper wrote:He costs 2 more points than a normal Defender, loses the shockhammer and has +2 armour (from the shield), has +1 RAT (his only positive point). His gun is exactly the same as the Defenders gun, except that he can see Stealthed units if he doesn't move and can spend a focus to give his gun a 3" AOE. His gun is also not magical so doesn't even get that.

I don't have a feel for the new points system in MK2 yet, but rules wise that doesn't sound too bad.

Mastershake wrote:Triumph has less worth with siege than pretty much any other caster because Siege has mage sight.

Then again...

I really don't get why people are so down on Triumph. He is allowed to be taken in Siege's theme lists. Other character jacks are not.

He's real good at shooting stuff. Especially Cryx sneaky stuff. I lose more Bane Thralls to AoEs than anything else.

The shield practically guarantees that he has to be engaged in close combat.

As for the hammer, thats just a bonus if you have it.

I don't feel a shooty jack should ever be engaged if you can help it. You pay a premium for shooting in this game.

Yeah, you could pay 2 extra points to "upgrade" a Defender to Triumph in a Siege list, but...

-Siege has Mage Sight, so taking a jack that can ignore stealth when it aims is not a priority
-Siege has Explosivo so if he needs a Defender to have an AoE it can

So you're paying 2 more points for a Defender to do 2 things that any other Defedner in a Siege list can. It just doesn't add any capability that wasn't already there.

So don't field him with Siege. Sloan and Haley will love him to death, and he's no slouch with Kraye either.

skrulnik wrote:I really don't get why people are so down on Triumph. He is allowed to be taken in Siege's theme lists. Other character jacks are not.

Cygnar also doesn't have any character jack worth mentioning appart from Ol' Rowdy, and he doesn't really fit in any Siege list, so not beeign able to take him is not that big of a deal.

Also theme lists for Cygnar are generally crap and really not worth it (appart from maybe Kraye's).

skrulnik wrote:
He's real good at shooting stuff. Especially Cryx sneaky stuff. I lose more Bane Thralls to AoEs than anything else.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but if you are loosing bane thralls to 3" AoEs then you really should get more practice playing them, there is no reason for you to loose more than 1 bane thrall at a time to an AoE of that size.

skrulnik wrote:
The shield practically guarantees that he has to be engaged in close combat.

As for the hammer, thats just a bonus if you have it.

I don't feel a shooty jack should ever be engaged if you can help it. You pay a premium for shooting in this game.

The hammer is a bonus that you pay 2 pts to loose with Triumph. The shield is uselless if you engage him in combat, the +2 armour won't save him from anything worth noting (if it did then Khador jacks would be pretty much invincible), and you can't even use it to help mitigate free strikes if you decide to leave mellee!

The shooty jack WILL be engaged in combat, because a smart opponent will know that he can neutralize 30% of your army by just running a mellee unit at it.

Anung wrote:
I don't have a feel for the new points system in MK2 yet, but rules wise that doesn't sound too bad.

Lets put it this way: for those same 2 pts you can get Arlan Strangeways that can give your Defender 1 focus each turn or repair any ranged damage that the enemy puts on it or it can even give him immunity to free strikes, allowing it to just move out of range from any tarpit that your opponent throws at it. And he comes with a SP8 POW 10 that causes disruption. Now tell me which did you rather have?

Mastershake wrote:-Siege has Mage Sight, so taking a jack that can ignore stealth when it aims is not a priority
-Siege has Explosivo so if he needs a Defender to have an AoE it can

How many focus are you spending to use those spells?

You only spend one to turn Triumph's shot to an AoE.
This nets you at least 3 FOC, I assume, to use for other stuff.
Or if the enemy have more than one stealth unit, you can use Triumph to Target one, and Mage Sight for the other.
I would think it could be useful vs WW Sirens, WSC, and Banes, all in the same list.

The point, though is that you're not adding anything. You don't see stealth or need AoE's every game and if you don't include Triumph you still have all of the capabilities it would've otherwise offered.

Also, yeah, trading out a POW 16 Cortex Hammer for a POW 12 shield on a jack with no other melee weapon means the jack might as well carry a sign saying "engage my dumb @$$". The shock hammer was no joke, if a Defender needed to fight another heavy it could hold its own. Triumph can barely hold it's own vs. a light jack.

PhantomViper wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
He's real good at shooting stuff. Especially Cryx sneaky stuff. I lose more Bane Thralls to AoEs than anything else.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but if you are loosing bane thralls to 3" AoEs then you really should get more practice playing them, there is no reason for you to loose more than 1 bane thrall at a time to an AoE of that size.

When all the troops are stealth, my arc nodes get targeted. Auto scatter. somebody is getting hit. Usually one at a time. But it adds up.
There are numerous situations that can result in more than one getting hit, but I guess this does not happen in theorymachine.

In addition, the returns of mage sight is considered with respect to Siege himself benefitting and any other jack in his battlegroup....so it's variable, but Mage Sight is prob. more efficient. No need to stand still to boot.

Triumph is 'kinda' like Discordia... they work so much better NOT with their designated Casters. ( Well few Ret players can say no to the Spray10 )

skrulnik wrote:
When all the troops are stealth, my arc nodes get targeted. Auto scatter. somebody is getting hit. Usually one at a time. But it adds up.
There are numerous situations that can result in more than one getting hit, but I guess this does not happen in theorymachine.

IF Triumph was Cygnars only way of dealing with stealthed units, then I might give you this, but we also have ATGM+UA and the Black 13, both units are alot better at dealing with stealthed units and both units bring alot more to a Cygnar army than just killing 1 stealthed model each turn.

There are situations where you could hit more than 1 model at a time with the AoE, terrain constrictions on the table and units that are in mellee are the ones that imediatelly come to mind. Again, in those situations the ATGM+UA or the Black 13 would be better choices. The ATGM also has a RAT 14 POW 17 3" AoE that ignores stealth giving it a better PoW on the blast and the Black 13 would deal a straight POW 12 damage with a 4" AoE, also ignoring stealth because of Fire Beacon (wich would also allow every other unit in your army to fire at the Bane Thralls)...

I didn't understand the phrase: "When all the troops are stealth, my arc nodes get targeted."

Sanctjud wrote:In addition, the returns of mage sight is considered with respect to Siege himself benefitting and any other jack in his battlegroup....so it's variable, but Mage Sight is prob. more efficient. No need to stand still to boot.

To be fair, if he's not running Mage Sight on Triumph he can be running it on anything else in his army instead, similar to how its imprint lets it stray from within 6" of Siege. Add in RAT 9 when he's standing still, and it's not a bad trade there.

And quite frankly, if you're letting something engage your Defenders in the first place, you're either facing Skorne cavalry or are doing something wrong. With a sixteen inch range, there's not really a good reason for Triumph or any other Defender to be on the front lines, and getting models through your infantry screen ought to be considerably harder than just running. While I do appreciate the hammer on the Defender, it's more useful as a counter-charge option than as some sort of defense against being tied up: If something just ran into melee with it, its player's already decided that it's expendable and is going to die next turn.

Really, I see Triumph staying close to its caster for the most part, behind the front lines where it still can shoot anything interesting that's approaching while keeping a strong melee presence near it to clear out anything engaging it.

Also theme lists for Cygnar are generally crap and really not worth it (appart from maybe Kraye's).

Given that a T4 Kraye theme list won Hardcore, I'd hope that it's competitive. Really, none of the Cygnar tiers are bad. It's just that Cygnar players in general would whine that a tier list that let them take Battle Engines for free doesn't let you use a Squire.

Laughing Man wrote:
And quite frankly, if you're letting something engage your Defenders in the first place, you're either facing Skorne cavalry or are doing something wrong. With a sixteen inch range, there's not really a good reason for Triumph or any other Defender to be on the front lines, and getting models through your infantry screen ought to be considerably harder than just running. While I do appreciate the hammer on the Defender, it's more useful as a counter-charge option than as some sort of defense against being tied up:

There is alot more stuff in the game other than Skorne Cavalry that can engage you in mellee from 15" away. Also since when does Cygnar have infantry screens?

And again, for Triumph to be able to shoot stealthed models he can't move, making it alot more dificult to avoid mellee if you are planning on using that habilitty (that you paid part of 2 points for).

Laughing Man wrote:
If something just ran into melee with it, its player's already decided that it's expendable and is going to die next turn.

A choice that the opponent doesn't have to make with Triumph, since it couldn't kill the same Skorne Cavalry that engaged him, just to use the unit that you mentioned.

Laughing Man wrote:
Really, I see Triumph staying close to its caster for the most part, behind the front lines where it still can shoot anything interesting that's approaching while keeping a strong melee presence near it to clear out anything engaging it.

So how many points are you tying up in this plan of yours? Do you still have any points left to actually fight the enemy or are you counting on a single POW 15 to win the game for you?

Also a marshalled Defender has a 25" threat range, allowing it to engage from much further away than the Triumph. There really is no match possible, the fact is that the Triumph is more expensive than the Defender, whille taking away flexibility and adding some very situational habilities that are better performed by other things already present in the Cygnar arsenal. I would only actually consider taking one if I was playing a 75pt game or something like that.

Laughing Man wrote:

Also theme lists for Cygnar are generally crap and really not worth it (appart from maybe Kraye's).

Given that a T4 Kraye theme list won Hardcore, I'd hope that it's competitive. Really, none of the Cygnar tiers are bad. It's just that Cygnar players in general would whine that a tier list that let them take Battle Engines for free doesn't let you use a Squire.

Thats why I said that Krayes tier list could be considered competitive, but keep in mind that Hardcore was 50pts, make a T4 list at 35pts and see what you have to give up to even make it fit in the point limit.

PhantomViper wrote:I didn't understand the phrase: "When all the troops are stealth, my arc nodes get targeted."

You can't target what you can't see.

Herne and Jonne target my bone jack (arc node), which is out of range bvut in line of sight. AoE is placed at max range dropping short onto my Banes and scatters.

PhantomViper wrote:There is alot more stuff in the game other than Skorne Cavalry that can engage you in mellee from 15" away. Also since when does Cygnar have infantry screens?

Very little else manages to get through infantry screens reliably, barring incorporeal or some such. As for infantry screens, haven't you ever heard of Trenchers? Or Precursor Knights? Sword Knights, even? Actually, never mind, I might not be too surprised if you haven't...

A choice that the opponent doesn't have to make with Triumph, since it couldn't kill the same Skorne Cavalry that engaged him, just to use the unit that you mentioned.

Ideally, Triumph won't have to anyway. You want him shooting, not stuck in melee, so use something else to clear him out, like Storm infantry or your Warcaster. Same goes for a normal Defender: Ideally, it's not hitting low value targets with that hammer, it's either shooting or charging targets that actually matter.

So how many points are you tying up in this plan of yours? Do you still have any points left to actually fight the enemy or are you counting on a single POW 15 to win the game for you?

Looking at that... 11, minus however many jack points I have?

Also a marshalled Defender has a 25" threat range, allowing it to engage from much further away than the Triumph. There really is no match possible, the fact is that the Triumph is more expensive than the Defender, whille taking away flexibility and adding some very situational habilities that are better performed by other things already present in the Cygnar arsenal. I would only actually consider taking one if I was playing a 75pt game or something like that.

Said marshalled Defender might as well cost the same as Triumph, plus the cost of that ATGM unit you've glued him to. Even better, he can't boost more than a single roll. But that's okay, we know there's nothing out there that unboosted RAT 6 POW 15's can't deal with.

Thats why I said that Krayes tier list could be considered competitive, but keep in mind that Hardcore was 50pts, make a T4 list at 35pts and see what you have to give up to even make it fit in the point limit.

Aww, poor widdle Cygnar player can't play his theme lists in 35 points effectively. Guess what? Most other casters can't either. Get used to it. And really, I absolutely love how you're willing to concede that a list that won Hardcore might be competitive. Might. I think I pulled something laughing.

I am glad people don't like Triumph. That Aimed AOE shot that ignores Stealth is exactly what The Sauce and his Bane Thralls do not need on the other side of the table. Plus it's one less Magical weapon to take out my Machine Wraiths.

Aduro wrote:I am glad people don't like Triumph. That Aimed AOE shot that ignores Stealth is exactly what The Sauce and his Bane Thralls do not need on the other side of the table. Plus it's one less Magical weapon to take out my Machine Wraiths.

I heard Tartar Sauce and his boys love playing with gun mages. Not like they have 14" range RAT 7 with True Sight...oh wait they do

And what AOEs are Bane Thralls getting hit with that actually hurt? They're ARM 15, even an AOE with a solid POW 13-14 needs 9's to kill them with blast damage.

Also I don't recall triumph having a magic weapon, but the gun mages sure as hell do.

Aduro wrote:I am glad people don't like Triumph. That Aimed AOE shot that ignores Stealth is exactly what The Sauce and his Bane Thralls do not need on the other side of the table. Plus it's one less Magical weapon to take out my Machine Wraiths.

Triumph's gun isn't magical, also, your Banes should be alot more worried about ATGM's 7 shots (wich are magical btw) or Black 13's Mage Storm 4" POW 12 (also magical btw) than a single 3" AoE.

Wow. That is a heated discussion I kinda started there.

Thanks for all the advice, I think I will go for an Ol' Rhody, a regular Defender and a Cyclone.

Mastershake wrote:And what AOEs are Bane Thralls getting hit with that actually hurt? They're ARM 15, even an AOE with a solid POW 13-14 needs 9's to kill them with blast damage.

Triumph's Pow 15. He needs 8s.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the same Aim bonus that gives Triumph the see thru Stealth thing also give him Magical Weapon? Or is it the AOE that also makes it Magical? I'd have sworn I heard of one of those two also did it. Either way it's Triumph's Boostable shot that ignores Stealth and would make The Sauce scared. I figure giving it a blast for one Focus to mess with his posse in addition is a nice handy bonus, even if you need 9s.

And I've yet to ever face Gun Mages, but they sound like they'd also be annoying.

Aduro wrote:
And I've yet to ever face Gun Mages, but they sound like they'd also be annoying.

Try a new level of pain and suffering.

I field Denny, WSC, WWSirens, Bane Thralls, BLT, Soul Hunters with Wrathe, and sometimes Nightmare and Pistol Wraiths.

Where do you put those stealth-breaking shots first?

wrt AoEs, averages do not play out over single games.
I've had games where they walk through it. I've had more where they are blasted to pieces.

Laughing Man wrote:
Very little else manages to get through infantry screens reliably, barring incorporeal or some such. As for infantry screens, haven't you ever heard of Trenchers? Or Precursor Knights? Sword Knights, even? Actually, never mind, I might not be too surprised if you haven't...

Awww, now you've hurt my feelings by insinuating that I'm a bad player...

Newsflash, all of the units that you've just listed are considered pretty crap by most Cygnar players, go check out any winning tournament list and let me know how many of them have any of the units you mentioned.

Cygnar needs to retain mobility and board control to win reliably in MK 2, thats one of the reasons you don't see LG's very much, for instance. We just don't have the points to spare to use on a unit just to screen another expensive unit. Also, Cryx (arguably the faction against wich Triumph would be more usefull), has several ways to give its units ghostly or incorporeal.

Laughing Man wrote:
Ideally, Triumph won't have to anyway. You want him shooting, not stuck in melee, so use something else to clear him out, like Storm infantry or your Warcaster. Same goes for a normal Defender: Ideally, it's not hitting low value targets with that hammer, it's either shooting or charging targets that actually matter.

True, but how would you deal with, say a Slayer (lets assume that he gets Ghost Walk cast on him for example) that ran to engage Triumph?

Do you:
a) Turn an infantry unit around to deal with it (or even another jack, or you warcaster, like you said), knowing that you probably can't get the charge on the Slayer (LoS issues), and that now your opponent has tied up 16+ pts of your army to deal (inefectually at that) with a 6 pt model?
b) Hit the Slayer with your awesome P+S 12 shield, actually tickling it?
c) Walk out of combat risking the free strikes, also knowing that the awesome shield that comes with the package does nothing to help against said free strikes?

Laughing Man wrote:

So how many points are you tying up in this plan of yours? Do you still have any points left to actually fight the enemy or are you counting on a single POW 15 to win the game for you?

Looking at that... 11, minus however many jack points I have?

Sorry, but you specifically said that you'd use a unit to screen Triumph from getting charged...

Laughing Man wrote:
Said marshalled Defender might as well cost the same as Triumph, plus the cost of that ATGM unit you've glued him to. Even better, he can't boost more than a single roll. But that's okay, we know there's nothing out there that unboosted RAT 6 POW 15's can't deal with.

Again, that is just not true. The ATGM+UA brings alot to the table on its own, for starters, it's alot better at killing stealth infantry than the Triumph will EVER be.

Add that unit to Defender + Arlan (the package that most Cygnar players use nowadays and that costs the same as Triumph), that combo allows much more flexibility than Triumph on its own and the Defender can still boost both attack rolls. Lets analyse the advantages:

- The Defender can freely move out of mellee;
- It has the same boosts to attack and damage rolls without any focus expenditure from the Warcaster;
- It has a possible 20" range, or a 15+4d6 damage on any crit (with 3d6 on attack rolls);
- It doesn't need to be in the Dude's command range, it will still keep his runeshots but will loose one of the boosts;
- It can repair any damage that is made to it with ranged attacks;

Again, what can the Triumph possibly bring to the table that is better than this?

Laughing Man wrote:
Aww, poor widdle Cygnar player can't play his theme lists in 35 points effectively. Guess what? Most other casters can't either. Get used to it. And really, I absolutely love how you're willing to concede that a list that won Hardcore might be competitive. Might. I think I pulled something laughing.

Reading compreension FTW I guess. The list that won hardcore is obviously competitive, since, you know, actually won it! The tier list on the other hand could, possibly, only be competitive at that point level and not translate so well to the more usual 35pt level tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aduro wrote:I could be wrong, but doesn't the same Aim bonus that gives Triumph the see thru Stealth thing also give him Magical Weapon? Or is it the AOE that also makes it Magical? I'd have sworn I heard of one of those two also did it. Either way it's Triumph's Boostable shot that ignores Stealth and would make The Sauce scared. I figure giving it a blast for one Focus to mess with his posse in addition is a nice handy bonus, even if you need 9s.

And I've yet to ever face Gun Mages, but they sound like they'd also be annoying.

No, no and no. Triumph can't get magical attacks on its own. You might be thinking about Sieges Explosivo.

Also, again, Triumph has to stand still to be able to see through stealth, just spending the 1 focus doesn't cut it.

And again, if the Sauce is scared of a single 16" range, RAT 9, POW 15 AOE, I'm guessing he would be alot more terrified about a 16" range, RAT 14, POW 17 one...