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1. Does Invulnerble save help against instant death?
2. Does Invulnerble save let you use feel no pain against ap1,2 , power weapons etc?
Need some clarification on this before my friends nob squad drives me into maddness.

1: Yes
2: No, not any way.
Honestly, when determinating if you can take a FnP save ignore everything on the target model except toughness.
Example:Space Marine Command Squad with storm shields getting hit by a hive guard, they get their 3+ or 3++ save but not the feel no pain.

Yes
No

Thanks for the fast replies!

Oscarius wrote:1: Yes
2: No, not any way.
Honestly, when determinating if you can take a FnP save ignore everything on the target model except toughness.
Example:Space Marine Command Squad with storm shields getting hit by a hive guard, they get their 3+ or 3++ save but not the feel no pain.

Umm, I would also say you have to take into account their armour save as well... Although obviously not in your example, as the Impaler Cannon is str 8, thus voiding FnP anyway.

Armor is not taken in consideration, guardsmen get FnP against bolters for example.
Only weapons that always (as in always) ignore armor or inflict ID ignore Fnp.

Sandyman - common misconception, but the rule requires "no armour saves may EVER be taken"

IF a terminator / MANz can take a save against it, then barring it being Instant Death causing you can take FNP against it. ALL models can, barring ID, take FNP saves against AP3+ weapons.

If the armour save of the model was important then Plaguebearers, who have no armour at all, could only ever take FNP saves against AP- weapons.

1) All saves are considered in regards to Instant Death. Instant Death is caused by anything that explicitly causes Instant Death, or any weapons whose strength is twice the target's toughness. In both of these cases, the wound has to be unsaved for Instant Death to occur. So if it's a weapon that allows armor saves, you can take an armor save. If you can't take an armor save, typically you can take an invulnerable save. There are only a few weapons (such as a Necron warscythe or, IIRC, the Shokk Attack Gun on a roll of 6,6) that do not allow invulnerable saves.
2) No, under no circumstances is this true.

Limbo wrote:1. Does Invulnerble save help against instant death?

No - when you determine ID (BRB page 26) you've already FAILED your save, whatever save you rolled. You can't have another save just because the wound is determined to cause ID.

Limbo wrote:2. Does Invulnerble save let you use feel no pain against ap1,2 , power weapons etc?

No. As already stated FNP (page 75 of the big rulebook) doesn't consider Inv saves at all, only a list of conditions that always deny you Armor saves or cause Instant Death.

Spelltulhu is technically correct(The best kind of correct) about the Invulnerable save and instant death calculation; But I am going to clarify what he means and why he is correct:

ID only occurs when a model has taken an unsaved wound from an attack that is double your T in S, or one that simply causes ID.

Now against those attacks, after they have hit and successfully wounded, you do get to make any available Saves(Impaler cannon vs Marines for example is double T but "high" enough AP that the Marine gets his armor save); it is after you have failed that save that the ID rule comes into effect as the model has only now truly been wounded by the attack; and thus dies outright(without some special rule preventing death and/or ignoring ID).

Alright, I think I understand now, but most of the time a weapon powerful enough to cause a instant death will generally not allow for a armour save unless they are invulnerble save right (meltas, lascannons etc)?

Generally speaking, yes.

Limbo wrote:Alright, I think I understand now, but most of the time a weapon powerful enough to cause a instant death will generally not allow for a armour save unless they are invulnerble save right (meltas, lascannons etc)?

Plenty of examples where this is not the case, though. Impaler cannons, as above, Manticore missiles, LRBT battle cannon, Earthshaker rounds, etc. So don't assume that just because it's S is high enough to cause instant death against your T4 models, you also don't get an armor save.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sandyman - common misconception, but the rule requires "no armour saves may EVER be taken"

IF a terminator / MANz can take a save against it, then barring it being Instant Death causing you can take FNP against it. ALL models can, barring ID, take FNP saves against AP3+ weapons.

If the armour save of the model was important then Plaguebearers, who have no armour at all, could only ever take FNP saves against AP- weapons.

Ah nuts, sorry, I usually am absolutley 110% cool with FnP rules, but had a massive hangover when I posted this, and my brain wasn't working very well Yes of course I now see my error, consider me stupid

Limbo wrote:Alright, I think I understand now, but most of the time a weapon powerful enough to cause a instant death will generally not allow for a armour save unless they are invulnerble save right (meltas, lascannons etc)?

There are a number of S8 AP3 weapons (like the krak missile and Battlecannon) that cause instant death to marines but allow terminator and artificer armor saves, and S6 AP4 weapons (like the assault cannon) that instant death guardsmen, insquisitors, sisters, and eldar but allow power armor (plus terminator and artificer armor) saves.