Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm running an escalation league at my FLGS, and one of the players in it came up to me and asked me about how I'd rule on Okkam's Mindrazor interacting with the Inpsiring Presence rule for army generals. So this player asked me if the Mindrazor would use the army general's leadership from Inspiring Presence, or if he'd have to use the unit's normal leadership. It makes a HUGE difference in the way this player will run his army at higher points, and will affect all of the other players to a smaller degree.

The player argued that because the Inspiring Presence rule only states that a unit within 12" of an army general uses the general's leadership (and it does not specify what for), and that Mindrazor says the models roll to wound as though their leadership was their strength, it would allow for the general's leadership to be used for Mindrazor rather than the unit's normal leadership. I frantically searched though the rule book, the VC army book, and both relevant FAQs for an answer and came up with nothing to the contrary.

Based on that, should allow Mindrazor to use the army general's leadership through Inspiring Presence?

Inspiring presence lets you use the generals leadership for leadership based tests.

Mindrazor lets you use your leadership as strength when rolling to wound.

Therefore i would say mindrazor is the leadership of the model, without IS

ShivanAngel wrote:Inspiring presence lets you use the generals leadership for leadership based tests.

Mindrazor lets you use your leadership as strength when rolling to wound.

Therefore i would say mindrazor is the leadership of the model, without IS

+1

ShivanAngel wrote:Inspiring presence lets you use the generals leadership for leadership based tests.

Mindrazor lets you use your leadership as strength when rolling to wound.

Therefore i would say mindrazor is the leadership of the model, without IS

Inspiring presence actually doesn't specify what the Leadership of the army general is used for. I don't have the book in front of me, but I spent half an hour last night looking. It would have solved the problem if it specified what the leadership could be used for.

Hmm true it says all units use his LD instead of their own, it would seem then that mindrazor does work in conjuction with IP.

I've been interpreting it as the unit's unmodified leadership that they use. For instance, if Doom and Darkness was cast on the unit, I'd still say that they use their unmodified leadership for Mindrazor's to wound, instead of being at a -3, but would have a -3 to leadership tests.

just looked at it, it does say that they use the generals leadership instead of their own.

However.

Mindrazor states they use THEIR leadership instead of strength when rolling to wound.

It could honestly be argued either way, and until its FaQed it will be argued.

Well i just checked the spell itself, it specifically states they use their LD instad of streinght.
In any event i don't know anymore

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I've been interpreting it as the unit's unmodified leadership that they use. For instance, if Doom and Darkness was cast on the unit, I'd still say that they use their unmodified leadership for Mindrazor's to wound, instead of being at a -3, but would have a -3 to leadership tests.

I'd agree, execpt Mindrazor doesn't say to use unmodified leadership, just to use the leadership.

Edit:

ShivanAngel wrote:
just looked at it, it does say that they use the generals leadership instead of their own.

However.

Mindrazor states they use THEIR leadership instead of strength when rolling to wound.

It could honestly be argued either way, and until its FaQed it will be argued.

And that's the problem I'm having. I'm inclined to say that the player is right in this case, because it doesn't say they don't get to use the leadership from Inspiring Presence.

ShivanAngel wrote:just looked at it, it does say that they use the generals leadership instead of their own.

However.

Mindrazor states they use THEIR leadership instead of strength when rolling to wound.

It could honestly be argued either way, and until its FaQed it will be argued.

Right. It all depends on the usage of "their" and how you are interpreting it in the English language. I read it as I have stated above, that "their" is defined in this context as, their unmodified leadership. What they inherently have. I hope it gets FAQed soon.

Their leadership, at the time you take the test, is the "borrowed" Ld from the General.

Inspiring Presence says that units use the general's leadership. Mindrazor specifies within the spell description that models within units use their leadership, meaning that even models within a unit led by the general (or other hero) would still use their base leadership.

The spell is very specific about models, Inspiring Presence is very specific about units.

But what about if it is a unit of just one model? Just to play devil's advocate.

It wouldn't matter. When the unit (whether 100 or 1 models) is called to use their leadership, they use the General's leadership instead due to Inspiring Presence. The individual models do not have their leadership value changed.

Mindrazor doesn't say to use the unit's leadership, it says to use the model's leadership; that being the baseline stat on their profile.

darkdm wrote:I'm running an escalation league at my FLGS, and one of the players in it came up to me and asked me about how I'd rule on Okkam's Mindrazor interacting with the Inpsiring Presence rule for army generals. So this player asked me if the Mindrazor would use the army general's leadership from Inspiring Presence, or if he'd have to use the unit's normal leadership. It makes a HUGE difference in the way this player will run his army at higher points, and will affect all of the other players to a smaller degree.

The player argued that because the Inspiring Presence rule only states that a unit within 12" of an army general uses the general's leadership (and it does not specify what for), and that Mindrazor says the models roll to wound as though their leadership was their strength, it would allow for the general's leadership to be used for Mindrazor rather than the unit's normal leadership. I frantically searched though the rule book, the VC army book, and both relevant FAQs for an answer and came up with nothing to the contrary.

Based on that, should allow Mindrazor to use the army general's leadership through Inspiring Presence?

I think the best way is to talk to all the members of your group and see what the consensus is. However, I agree Hoverboy and ShivanAngel:

HoverBoy wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Inspiring presence lets you use the generals leadership for leadership based tests.

Mindrazor lets you use your leadership as strength when rolling to wound.

Therefore i would say mindrazor is the leadership of the model, without IS

+1