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Karchev obviously
Behemoth
Juggernaut

tactic: slow moving strike force carving their way until they get to the other side caster, then well do what khador do best

or this other list
Karchev
Marauder
Berserker
Juggernaut

Tactic: nearly the same as the above, but providing the alternative of playing the Karchev pinball against a large number of model list, by using ground zero and Marauder

so? post your opinion on this list , how good is it against both WM and Horde

I like the second list better. Karchev generally performs better with more rather than 'better' warjacks. A Marauder and a Berzerker has more survivability than just a Behemoth.

Go with the second list.

I'll second what Spiggott said. You generally have two options when playing Karchev: The gunboat, or the warjack slingshot. While gunboat can be effective, it's rather point intensive, given the high cost of Khador's ranged warjacks.

Gunboat typically revolves around towing BigB and destroyers around the table, letting them stand still for the aiming bonus while still being pulled up the field. Generally, your focus goes towards upkeeping Tow and buying boosts for their bombards, and unless something goes wrong you'll almost never cast Unearthly Rage.

Slingshot, on the other hand, is the classic Karchev playstyle: Buy a crapton of dedicated melee warjacks, and present your back to the enemy so that your Towed jacks can get a threat range of 16.5+ inches. Relies heavily on Unearthly Rage for insane focus efficiency. Three warjacks is really the minimum, as that's the max you can Tow around. Spriggans are my typical choice due to longer threat range and Bulldozer, but Berserkers and Juggernauts work wonders too. Kodiaks and Beast-09 are common choices as well, as their Heavy Boilers will let them keep up with Karchev's posse.

You WILL need to pick up some infantry models in higher point values. While Karchev looks beefy on paper, his ability to lose systems at crucial moments (especially his Body) is not to be underestimated, and certain anti-Warjack abilities work on him as well. Likewise, his large base means he's especially vulnerable to being swarmed or shot to death.

This is where an infantry screen comes in. You need to be able to clog charge lanes with bodies and threaten ranged units who try to blow chunks off of your caster. Personally, I'm a fan of Doom Reavers and Winter Guard Rifles for this role. The Dreavers provide a great melee unit that doesn't need the infantry support that Karchev can't provide. The Winter Guard Rifles likewise need little support (beyond, of course, Kovnik Joe), and are great at picking off lightly armored infantry that might otherwise clog up the field, along with laying down Covering Fire where ranged units need to stand to shoot Karchev. They're especially handy when there's a Spriggan or two around to get rid of stealth.

I have played several games using karchev and behemoth, have yet to lose one. At 15 pts, it is very difficult to take out either model quickly. I usually run it with mechaniks though, instead of another jack. I like running with: mechaniks, 2x manhunters, and a war dog. Manhunters can drop extremely tough and tough to hit targets, they can sit on the flanks without being shot due to stealth, and they have the movement to keep up with karchev's mobility. I did not expect the war dog to do much, but it proves extremely valuable at thwarting assassination attempts. It saved me from a typhon one game. If the behemoth takes damage, your mechaniks can easily repair a good portion of it. Remember, the behemoth will easily crush other jacks/beasts in melee combat, dont be afraid to charge it into their important heavy if your mortars arent keeping them at bay. That same game against legion, my behemoth put typhon down with two swings.


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As the size of the battle goes up, Karchev is less and less of a powerhouse due to the enemy's ability to drop your jacks in one round of shooting.

Hmm so either list is viable?
how about a 35 point list?
would it be easier to just switch a warcaster like say Vlad? or Butcher? or Strakhov?

or is it good to just add supporting Infantry to the Karchev list?
if i should add Infantry, what is the essential infantry for this?
the only one that i can think of is mechaniks

For a 35 pt list, I would forget about the gunboat. Some ranged armies will be able to drop one of your jacks very low or dead in one round, so it loses it's effectiveness. Slingshot would probably be a better option. With that many points, you could run with a devestator/beast/anything you want. Just make sure you take three good jacks. Then I would support them with some ranged infantry like widows+UA, or the rifleman squad. I wouldnt bother with mechaniks because you are going to slingshot your battlegroup across the field in two turns, they wouldnt be able to keep up.

I would use units that either keep pace with karchev (cavalry) or units that can sit on the sides of the charge lanes and pick off blockers/important models from a distance (widows/rifleman).

how many points are a usual non tourney game?

Slingshot is basically launching warjack across using Karchev
"Tow" right?

how about this list for 35 point
Karchev
Beast09
Decimator/Juggernaut
Devastator
Steelhead calvary
widow maker/Koldun

I have no idea how many points most people play at. My friends and I prefer to play between 15 and 25pts. We are still green. You really dont need the koldun, karchev's jacks dont really need focus support due to unearthly rage. Did you look at Faction model cavalry? I dont know the stats on steelheads but I know the MOW Drakhun is a very very solid piece. I havent used the decimator but I have only heard that is is bad at everything it is supposed to be good at. Beast 09 can/will win games for you, as will the devestator.

I think if you make the jugg a berserker (a very very good jack for karchev) and drop the steelheads, you could take a squad of uhlans.


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***In fact, if you make the jugg a zerker, and remove the steelheads. You can take a small squad of uhlans and uhlan markov. I have never used them, but it would seem like a solid choice to me

back to the drawing board then

I am guessing to switch Decimator to another Devastator, might as well go full close range at this time
Hmmm you are right Uhlan and the Malkov look very solid, and their utility stands right out from their stats