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Ok, so I have my frist 2k game this upcomming wednseday and I need some advice on my army. Its a Crimson Fist army so Id like to keep Pedro and the Sternguard...(I know that scouts might be fluffy but imo small 5 man tactical squads are rather fluffy aswell...) What I dont like is that I lack a Libby, I could drop a Typhoon or a ACLC Pred in order to get one but do you guys think it would be a good choice? The idea of the army is to have a nice gunline element and then have some mobile threat with the termies and sternguard.

Thanks for all C&C

Anyway, here we go

HQ:
Pedro - 175

Elites:
6xSternguard (4xCombimelta+2xHF) - 215
Rhino

6xSternguard (4xCombimelta+2xHF) - 215
Rhino

5xAssault termies (TH/SS) - 475
LRC (MM+EA)

Troops:
5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

Heavy:
ACLC Pred - 120

ACLC Pred - 120

FA:

Landspeeder Typhoon - 90

Landspeeder Typhoon - 90

Personally, using my own Crimson Fist style army as a reference i'd suggest doing this:

The whole point of Pedro is taking Sternguard as scoring units. Taking only 6 in a squad means you're losing out on your most valuable weapon: Hellfire Rounds.

Your terminator squad in a land raider will be targeted early by every melta in the game (get an eldar fire dragon squad bearing down on it or a valkyrie and you're in big trouble).
Lose the terminators IMO.

The troops in razorbacks......give your sergeants combi-meltas or flamers so the squad doesn't die when assaulted by a larger force or a walker.

Also consider taking a librarian with a tactical squad to give you a really good weapon when using sternguard: NULL ZONE

Imagine you're against daemons, all those Inv Saves have to be rerolled. and you're firing hellfire rounds which wound on a 2+. that's a lot of wounds having to be saved!

So your list would look something like this:

Pedro Kantor
175

Librarian
Null Zone & The Avenger
100

ELITES

Sternguard Squad (10 man)
x 2 Combi-Flamer
x 4 Combi-Plasma
DT: Rhino w/ HK
325

Sternguard Squad (10 man)
x 2 Combi-Flamer
x 4 Combi-Plasma
DT: Rhino w/ HK
325

Sternguard Squad (10 man)
x 5 Combi-Melta
DT: Rhino w/ HK
320

TROOPS
5xTacticals - 175
Combi-Flamer
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 175
Combi-Flamer
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

Heavy:
ACLC Pred - 120

ACLC Pred - 120

2000

How am I loosing out on hellfire rounds if I only take 6? Do you mean in the sense that I could take more sternguards? While hellfire rounds are nice I dont think they are a end all be all kind of weapon.

The LR would be screened by the Rhinos/RBs making it diffcullt for the MGs to be within melta range. But yeah, a LR is vunerable to meltas no news there really

"The troops in razorbacks......give your sergeants combi-meltas or flamers so the squad doesn't die when assaulted by a larger force or a walker."

What? I do not intend to have my troops outside of the RB. Sure a combi-flamer would be nice but where would I find those 30pts?

As for the list you proposed, its not bad but you only have one source of melta and if you thought that a LR with termies would get destroyed fast then what do you think a Rhino with 300pts of Sternguard will be?
Thanks for the comments tho.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I could be so bold as to drop Pedro and a Typhoon for a forth LCPG RB and a Libby.

If you want heavy flamers in your elites take terminators.

You don't want your tacticals outside your razorbacks??
ok.......what happens when your razorbacks get destroyed.

why would I take Tactical terminators if I want HFs? A Sternguard squad can take two and costs less. They also pack a massive AT punch.

When the RB is destroyed they will end up in cover but without a metal box, how does a combi flamer change this?

cause then what's the point of having a sternguard squad if you're not using the special ammo to best effect?

and a combi-flamer helps cause when you're out in the open with god knows what bearing down on you, being able to take out 4 infantry with one shot will help a lot.

Corennus wrote:cause then what's the point of having a sternguard squad if you're not using the special ammo to best effect?

and a combi-flamer helps cause when you're out in the open with god knows what bearing down on you, being able to take out 4 infantry with one shot will help a lot.

How does this not apply to sternguard? When Im out in the open two HFs will do a crap load more damage than 4 vengance rounds. I will not leave the rhino voulntarily with my sternguard.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
and btw, why are you giving me flak for having 6man sternguard squads when you yourself did it in one of your own lists

cause when I did it one of my own lists I was using a razorback.

i'm only trying to help.
and actually sternguard are the one infantry unit you want to field outside their transport. what's the point of them being in the transport when you actually want their weight of fire making a difference.

And i'm talking about combi-flamers on the tactical squads.

Ok about heavy flamers. you get a 9 inch template.
That's great.

Now what happens if you want to take out a squad at 12", or 24"

you have 4 special ammo bolters. that's 4 shots at 24" or 8 shots at 12.
statistically that's not going to kill alot.

now compare it to having a full 10 man squad firing whatever rounds:
10 shots at 24", if those are hellfire you should get some good wounds.
20 shots at 12". that's even more impressive, you could be getting upwards of 15 hits and 12 wounds. With Vengeance rounds (no armour saves against normal armour) that's more you can expect from 2 heavy flamers!

Meh imo dont bother with sternguard HF unless you're packing in vulkan. Objective sitting should be their biggest concern

If you want to take heavy weapons take ONE of the following:

Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer
Multi-Melta.

Multi-Melta would be my choice cause you're more likely to have a tank or walker try and take out sternguard than infantry squads you can use hellfire rounds against.

Heavy flamer.....gonna bite my tongue and say if you're going against hoardes then maybe. but combi-flamers are SO much more worth it.

Missile Launcher. gives you range. good for softening up infantry before you give them loads of special ammo rounds

I do understand that you are trying to help me and I do apprechiate it, however I do not agree with your ideas so unless you motivate well Im not very likely to change my mind just because you post some other setup

A 10 man sternguard squad will kill roughly 5.5 boyz when within rapid fire range, thats 33.3 pts
Assuming my templates hit 4 Boyz those HFs alone will kill as many boyz as your 10 Sternguards, on top of this I still have 4 Sternguards amounting to another 2.2kills if I were to leave the Rhino (which I wouldnt do). Your 10 sternguards would most likely die next turn when the remaining boyz charge you...

The last suggestion is not good suggestion. All the heavy weapons except for the HF requires you to be stationary.
The only other option is to take two lascannons and camp out as a mini Dev squad.

Why would 6 man sternguards in a razorback be viable but 6 man in a Rhino would not? 1 stormbolter+2 sternguards will put out mroe fire than a HB...

2 HF templats hitting a horde after tank shocking them into a nice blob will kill alot more than vengance rounds ever will.

Because in a razorback you get the added firepower of the heavy weapons.
And you HAVE to get out of a razorback for your sternguard to do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok last thing i'm gonna say. See how you do with 2 heavy flamers in your squads.

or better still. take one with the heavy flamers, one without. see which works best.

Corennus wrote:Because in a razorback you get the added firepower of the heavy weapons.
And you HAVE to get out of a razorback for your sternguard to do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok last thing i'm gonna say. See how you do with 2 heavy flamers in your squads.

or better still. take one with the heavy flamers, one without. see which works best.

This makes no sense, why would it be a good thing to have to get out in order to do some damage? Id rather have the choice of getting out or staying inside the metal box. And as I said before, a TLHB is not better than a stormbolter and 2 special bolters or HFs.

Does anyone else have some ideas?

Your list doesn't look too bad. Only thing I would do is drop the heavy flamers on the Sternguard, why? Reason is you're paying 11 points extra for a Sternguard for that funky ammo among things. Switching that funky ammo for a heavy flamer means you're paying for something and not getting it. Sternguard are good anti infantry already with the many rounds, as for your Ork example just use hellfire rounds which wound on a 2+ instead of 4+ like the other rounds - will hurt Orks more trying to roll all those 6+ to save! You want flamers to combi flamers, that way you keep the special ammo.

My Ork example was with hellfire rounds, I just used the wrong name . You would be best of using dragonfire bolts tho.
I guess I can play test with both combi-flamers and haveny flamers and see what works best.

I think that changing the ACLC preds for Vindicators might be a good idea, what do you guys think?

HQ:
Pedro - 175

Librarian - 150
Epistolary
Null Zone & The Avenger

Elites:
6xSternguard (4xCombimelta x 2 CombiFlamer) - 215
Rhino

6xSternguard (4xCombimelta x 2 CombiFlamer) - 215
Rhino

Troops:
5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5xTacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5x Tacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

5x Tacticals - 165
Razorback (TLPG+LC)

Heavy:
ACLC Pred - 120

ACLC Pred - 120

FA:

Landspeeder Typhoon - 90

Landspeeder Typhoon - 90


More troops. Null Zone. More lascannons. More plasma (for terminator killing). More chance of getting to objectives.

Azrael the Departed wrote:My Ork example was with hellfire rounds, I just used the wrong name . You would be best of using dragonfire bolts tho.
I guess I can play test with both combi-flamers and haveny flamers and see what works best.

I think that changing the ACLC preds for Vindicators might be a good idea, what do you guys think?

I didn't see your example mate, just did one of me own. Well you only need dragonfire rounds if they're in cover, and if they was, then yes, dragonfire all the way.

I'm going to say yes about the Preds. I like auto/las as it's cheap, cheerful and does the job. HOwever you've got two Typhoons and 3 las-backs so you don't really need them. Vindicators could acompany the Razorbacks nicely, however, one thing I don't like actually is the min Tactical Squads inside Razors, doesn't work well with vanilla S.M.