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What is with the subtle hostility from people when someone doesn't state their magic lores when presenting a list for critiquing? Every time I see a list with no lore mention there's someone raging about how they have to choose when they write the list.

The entire point in having to choose lores ahead of time is for tournaments where you DON'T know which enemy you will be facing. It makes no sense for casual games where you often know your opponent ahead of time and thus can "write" a list with whichever lore is best.

I never saw so many people bring up Lores in previous editions when lists are presented on boards.

I dunno, you could turn up with your Lore of Metal wizard for a casual game against your friend's Empire army to discover he has chosen to drop his knights in favour of infantry hordes. He would be entitled to grumble if you suddenly said, "Oh, did I say Lore of Metal, I meant Lore of Fire."

Many unit choices depend on the lore you picked for the mages.

As an example. If a guy has three Fire Wizards it would seem to be obvious that he needs to tone done the war machines in his final list since he has artillery pretty much covered.

Its always good to have some strategy involved prepared.

Lore of life and light are especially true with their buffs

As long as they declare their lore at the beginning of the game and NOT change their mind after the game has already begun, I don't think I'd have a problem with it...


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burning_phoneix wrote:As an example. If a guy has three Fire Wizards it would seem to be obvious that he needs to tone done the war machines in his final list since he has artillery pretty much covered.

Speaking as an IG player, you can never have enough artillery.

Well from my view, for friendly games I like to try out different lores each game without changing the list. So for me saying which lore I'm taking could change any time as I just pick one that I'm reading up on that day.

I get it for tournies, but those are also usually set up to where you need to turn in your list ahead of time.

aerethan wrote:Well from my view, for friendly games I like to try out different lores each game without changing the list. So for me saying which lore I'm taking could change any time as I just pick one that I'm reading up on that day.

I get it for tournies, but those are also usually set up to where you need to turn in your list ahead of time.

Well, for friendly games it's really up to you and your opponents I suppose. But it shouldn't be that hard to keep the same list as you want, and before you get to the game, choose your lore.

Check the 2nd paragraph of page 490 in the BRB. The rule states you have to choose your lore of magic when you make your list. That's probably why you're getting flak from people because it's a rule. However, as I mentioned, if you and your friends want to house rule it and just choose right before the game it shouldn't be a problem.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

If one was looking to expirement with different Lores on the same list, would you (as my opponent) have a problem if I were to randomly roll my lore before the game?

Obviously not for tournaments...

No. But if you showed up and saw that I had x,y,z and the you said, oh, I'm choosing this lore and it happened to be the lore that dominates my x,y,z, I'd be a little miffed. But, if we were in a regular gaming group and were friends, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. The randomness thing, sure, because it's random.

Well the rules do say that the lore of your wizards should be chosen when you write the list, just as you choose what units you are taking, and what magic items you have, etc. How would you feel if someone started switching out the magic items on their characters when they find out what army you have to their advantage? It is essentially the same thing. It might not seem like it as choosing a magic lore doesn't change any points or what units you have.

So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

Melissia wrote:So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

Ah and that's where people will disagree with you. You see magic as a choice you should be able to make at the start of battle. Technically this is not how it is designed to work. The way the rules are written your magic lore *is* equipment. Two wizards with the exact same load out with different lores look the same, have the same point cost, and the same mundane and magic items. However they *are* equipped differently and certainly can function differently.

For the record it doesn't really bother me outside of a tournament environment. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Melissia wrote:So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

By this logic, the rules lawyers are also making you write out six different lists where the magic items on your characters are different. The models haven't changed, but their non-WYSIWYG options have to allow you flexibility against the opponents you face. I guess I don't see the lore selection as any different than your magic item selection.

Selecting a lore is part of list construction, like anything else. If you're not building a finalized list, and just a general build that you intend to change depending on who you play, then just say so. For instance, if you have a list that includes a dispel scroll, are you going to take it out if you know you're playing against Dwarves? If not, then why is lore selection any different?

And if that's how your group plays, then that's fine, but you should probably make it clear when you post a list. I know I wouldn't give you a hard time if you stated up front that a given list was a "core" that would change depending on who your match up for the week was going to be.

Melissia wrote:So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

Also, not everyone uses paper. I make my lists on excel spread sheets and bring my laptop to my games. Besides, let's say you are going to play a game against a heavily armored opponent because you set that game up before hand, it's pretty easy to decide as you're making your list to choose the Lore of Metal so that you are in accordance with the rules.

Melissia wrote:So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

Be thankful they're not complaining about not showing it on the model because of WYSIWYG

n0t_u wrote:

Melissia wrote:So basically, what the rules lawyers are saying, is that I would have to print out six different identical lists and then produced a different one each time I wanted to use a different lore.

What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

Be thankful they're not complaining about not showing it on the model because of WYSIWYG

I've never been a fan of WYSIWYG. I think proxies are just fine. I understand the reasoning behind the rule for tournaments though.

Im glad my flgs doesnt WYSIWYG beacuse all my empire knights have lances(i mean Great weapons).

I don't think there's any "subtle hostility", just people wanting to adapt to the new rules for 8th edition for creating army lists. You are now required to list your lore on your army list... so, if you post an army list without the lore you are taking, it's incomplete!

It wasn't an issue in 7th edition, because you were not required to list your lore on your army list.

I really like this change, personally, and hope everyone adopts / abides by it and types the lore onto their lists!

I do to, but i also HATE list tailoring with a passion.

With the new lores especially it would be broken to let you pick your lore every game. Each one has strengths and weaknesses.

however the only downside is your rarely see certain lore being used because of that. Metal is almost never taken. Neither is fire, or beasts. They are very strong but have a niche that is great vs some armies, and horrible vs others. So you have everyone taking the well rounded lists like life pretty much exclusevely.

If you plan on experimenting with lores just say so. Thats what I did when i started working on my DE tournament army, I put down all the gear and then stated which lores I was experimenting with. I think it is also helpful in friendly games because it can allow us some insight into how you plan to use the caster. Are you going for the buffs/debuffs, direct damage, etc. This can be very useful in also picking some magical gear.

For example there is no need for the Sacrifical Dagger if I plan to use Lore of Death while having the Darkstar Cloak and other dice generating items.

Red_Zeke wrote:By this logic, the rules lawyers are also making you write out six different lists where the magic items on your characters are different.

Melissia wrote:What a waste of paper... it's not a different unit, hell it's not even a differently equipped model of the same unit...

You read my post, yes? Oh, wait, you didn't.

Magical lores being "equipment" sounds... well, unfluffy to me, after I spent so much time in WFRP (the earlier roleplaying game, not the later-produced card game).

Reading your post and disagreeing with you isn't the same as not reading your post.

Seems like it would be more difficult to change years and years of magical study on a whim than it would be to change out your magical handbag.