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In the situation that someone has to have their Leman Russes in a squadron (already using the two other heavy support choices) I was originally considering a naked Battle Tank + loaded Executioner combo.
It would have one 72" battle cannon and five plasma cannon shots for 380 points. Executioners are AP2 with loads of terminator-killyness without needing point-blank like a Demolisher.

Then I randomly decided to look for alternative builds for the same role.

For the same 380 points, a squadron could be a pair of LRBT with two plasma cannons each.
Now instead of one long range ordinance and five plasma blast templates, it gets two long range ordinance and four AP2 blasts. That means both tanks can start firing from Turn 1 with 72" range.

Furthermore, a naked battle tank which has a weapon destroyed result becomes basically worthless. Whereas, a LRBT with 2x plasma cannons on the sides can have its main gun be destroyed and still mow down entire terminator/marine squads.

Is there any way that the first combo (1 battle cannon 5 plasma build) is better than the second other than simply against a completely-terminator army?

I think in general, S9 AP3 ordinance is always considered more valuable than a plasma cannon on a 1-to-1 basis, right? I wish all my space marine devs could carry battle cannons.

I'm a fan of heavy bolter LR. If you're worried about terminators. a squad LR with 9 heavy bolter shots each will kill as many terminators as plasma and they are cheaper and don't scatter. Plus do more dmg to horde armies.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:I'm a fan of heavy bolter LR. If you're worried about terminators. a squad LR with 9 heavy bolter shots each will kill as many terminators as plasma and they are cheaper and don't scatter. Plus do more dmg to horde armies.

At BS 3, (unless you took Pask,)? No way.

I prefer the battle cannon + plasma sponson combo, if I had to choose. Taking the battle cannon gives you access to an ordnance weapon, for starters, (a pinning weapon + psykers reducing ld = lulz) not to mention the armor penetration stuff. The 40 points can be used for about 9828328432932943 other things, (weapon upgrades, voxes if you choose. etc.)

At B3 you have 9 shots each tank in a squad....4/5 will hit each tank. 3 will wound...1 terminator will fail save.

Scatter and roll a 7+ you don't hit a single model with small templates.


You should try it out. You will be pleasantly surprised how well they work. Then if you target tac marines....goodnight!

Adding HB sponsons only adds SIX shots, not NINE thus your math is entirely off.

SIX shots, 3 hits, 0.33 failed saves. Pathetic.
It takes 6 sponsons of heavy bolters to kill 1 term.

Plasma cannons only roll to scatter and no roll to hit, if one of the two of them hit 1 single terminator, it'd do .56 wounds instead of 0.33 of 2 heavy bolters. If 4 total terminators got hit after 2 blast templates (not unlikely at all) that's 2.22 dead terminators instead of 0.33 from 2 entire heavy bolters.

No one except a fool takes heavy bolters as the counter to terminators. They're terrible. They're better than having nothing, but you're COMPLETELY wrong about them "killing more than plasma cannons."

As for accuracy, PC are FAR more reliable because they ALWAYS shoot and their accuracy skyrockets the more enemies are on the field or bunched up. If enemies spread as widely as possible in a grid, then a blast which scatters 4" sideways has a good chance of killing stuff, if they bunch up, that common perfect-hit roll obliterates them. You have 2 heavy bolters at BS3? They have to roll to hit before they do anything, so it's as if 1 heavy bolter disappears. 2 Plasma cannons auto-hit they just have a chance to scatter. With a 33% chance each to land in the winning spot (and do massive damage) two of them firing should on average give at least one PC that hits the enemy perfectly square. The second one will scatter an average 4" which has a very high chance of grazing 1-2 models in a unit with no partials involved.

It's a difference of 170 for the 0.33 Term-killing HB Russ to 190 for the PC Russ killing likely 2.2-3.3 terminators per turn. I do believe a 12% increase in price is justified by a 500-650%+ increase in terminator-killing.

The same is true of tactical marines. A BS3 heavy bolter kills an average 0.33 marines per turn which is nothing at all. That's nowhere near "goodnight" status... A plasma cannon kills an average 83% of marines it touches. If it touches a single marine, that's almost a 3x higher kill-rate than a heavy bolter. If it touches 3 marines, that's NINE times more killing than a heavy bolter. And it's not unlikely with destroyed transport bunching that 4-5 marines get hit.

First, the Russ comes with a hull Heavy Bolter...Add sponsons = 9 shots...You should actually take a minute and READ your codex sometime

the same number of points gets you 3 basilisks with some points to spare.

If all you care about is damage output, then take artillery. It does more for the same number of points.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:First, the Russ comes with a hull Heavy Bolter...Add sponsons = 9 shots...You should actually take a minute and READ your codex sometime

And there's a hull heavy bolter on the LR battle tank and executioner too, adding sponsons adds 6 sucky shots compared to 2 plasma cannon shots.

You should take a minute and not be an idiot sometime.


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Ailaros wrote:the same number of points gets you 3 basilisks with some points to spare.

If all you care about is damage output, then take artillery. It does more for the same number of points.

Care to point anything else completely obvious out?

Basilisks have 36" minimum range, armor 12, and can't drive around shooting.

Stick to the actual topic: which has nothing to do with artillery (Furthermore, 2 battle cannons + 4 plasma cannons does more damage to 2+ armor than 3 earthshaker cannons, especially with indirect artillery scattering extra.)

I'm restarting my Guard again and I think I'm going to try running two LBT with plasma side sponsons and a lascannon.

I know there's going to be some groans about how expensive the unit is but I'm rather fond of the idea, my reasons?

1) Versatility. With that load out it'll be a threat to almost everything on the table (AV14 being a last resort but it still has a chance!)

2) Cheap plasma! It sounds like a fair amount when you pay for it in the first place but when looking at it, you're paying five extra points more than a standard plasma rifle and for that you get a blast marker that doesn't rely upon bs and also has no issues with 'it gets hot' I'm not sure what's not to like.

I agree artillery gives a fair about of bang for your buck but with any LBT you're also paying for survivability.

Maybe my ideas are a little bit slanted as the whole vets/valk/chim meta game doesn't really appeal to me so I'm trying to find alternatives.

Well enough of this thread. Bloodgod is a moron that don't like other ideas. I never said dude that the plasma sponsons are crappy. They just aren't worth the points IMO. That's 1 expensive tank to just worry about terminators.


Don't post anything and ask for opinions next time if you are just going to bash anyone that replies to HELP you.

TheBloodGod wrote:Care to point anything else completely obvious out?

Yes, I'd like to point out that if you're taking a russ purely for the damage output, then you're doing it wrong.

TheBloodGod wrote:Basilisks have 36" minimum range, armor 12, and can't drive around shooting.

You might want to actually read your codex before making statements like this. Basilisks have no minimum range when firing directly, and can, in fact, drive around and shoot. That they're AV12 isnt' that big of a deal if you're in cover (which you'd have to actually do math to see), and is far superior to AV14 when you put the vehicle out of LOS entirely.

TheBloodGod wrote:Stick to the actual topic: which has nothing to do with artillery (Furthermore, 2 battle cannons + 4 plasma cannons does more damage to 2+ armor than 3 earthshaker cannons, especially with indirect artillery scattering extra.)

On topic: don't take either of them.

As for the damage, you have extra points to spare, which means that you can upgrade to take medusas, which do more to 2+ than basilisks. Of course, all this is moot because no russ variant is going to do much against terminators unless you JUST wrecked their land raider. Otherwise, it's just too easy to make it so that you're only ever hitting 1 terminator at a time, max.

Having played with a tricked out Executioner, here's my 2 cents.

If you have to pick between 1)two LRBTs with plasma sponsons or 2)1 naked LRBT and 1 Executioner with plasma sponsons , I'd go with option 1. Its more expensive, but it'll give you more plasma survivability and allow you to get more wounds on the terminators (not to mention other things).

I've played against a Deathwing player that knows how to space against blasts, and my small plasma cannon templates averaged 2 hits a turn (after all 5 shots), killing 1 a turn. If your opponent knows what they're doing, the Executioner is not a good option.

In my opinion, both options are terrible. If you're that concered with terminators, take a demolisher and slap plasma sponsons on it, and buy a Veteran squad or CCS with plasma guns. The demolisher may be shorter range, but it's going to hit a terminator almost every time and has the advantage of being more versatile. But in my experience, sheer volume of shoots has killed way more terminators than AP2. Just forcing those saves over and over, they will fail eventually.

Hmm Yea Demolishers or Medusas can take a few termies by surprise. Still a bit pricey though and you got to be a bit close (demo cannons especially)

The executioner seems really expensive for what you want it to do, between the two choices i'd go for the second.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:I'm a moron because Bloodgod doesn't like my slowed ideas. I never said dude that the plasma sponsons are crappy I just claimed heavy bolters massacre T4 2+ and 3+ armor save.

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kenshin620 wrote:Hmm Yea Demolishers or Medusas can take a few termies by surprise. Still a bit pricey though and you got to be a bit close (demo cannons especially)

Medusa certainly costs less, but that's because it is 12 armor instead of 14 armor and can't fire indirectly. Another downside of the Medusa is a weapon destroyed neuters it completely, whereas the more expensive LR version has 3 good guns. Of course, still pricy.

It'd be quite easy for lascannons/lootas/autocannons to spam fire on the medusas and keep them stunned so they can never shoot until they are destroyed, whereas that's exponentially harder against AV14 at long range.

I might try swapping to a build with nothing but artillery in a low points value game just for the cost savings though and the lower amount of good enemy shooters which are the main drawback to medusas.

Basilisks cost less, shoot 1 large blast which they get full 2+ saves against.
The specific thread mentions tank options which deal with 2+ armor, the guard has plenty of weapons that massacre boyz and 3+ armor save stuff.
AV14 in cover is much more resilient than AV12 in cover, which you'd have to actually do math to see, instead of simply making a dumb claim online (a 4+ save helps any armor amount the same.)

It's 150 points for 2 obliterators with plasma cannons that don't fire 1/6th of the time (and 1/6th chance to wound themselves) or 40 points for 2 always-reliable plasma cannons on a LR. Are the obliterators costing 4 times more than they should cost? I've won dozens of games using them.

I don't buy anyone's claims that 5 blast weapons normally averages 2 enemies touched in most real world games, if he's spread wide, then a scattered blast will likely hit 1-2 guys instead of missing completely. It's nearly impossible to deploy a whole marine squad and have those results without bad luck. Plus, that's why you set up fire lanes using terrain or fire at units after you blow up their transport which are situations where they can't do the sideways line. I can't see an enemy being able to navigate terrain with a line of units with 2" between each. With 10 marines that'd be a unit like 29" across. They have to stay in coherency and can't split up, so they're going to get bunched or slowed down. Also, blast weapons are good if they force the enemy to do a maximum spread if his bank ranks of guys are like 6-8" behind his front ones, it means more of them out of range for shooting and that it's harder for him to push hard against a gunline. His units are basically coming in piecemeal if his stuff is spread way backwards and sideways, rather than all shooting and assaulting together.

I can see the demolisher build being more effective against Nothing-but-terminators, but 205 points for almost no sniping ability. If it was in a squadron with a 2nd tank, the other tank would have to also be moving dangerously close to the enemy. I'd rather kite the enemy than have to put my tank within 24" of the enemy when a lot of the guys I face field things like zoanthropes with 24" threat range and S10 AP1 lance which pens a demolisher on 3+ or multi-melta land speeders with a 24" tank-kill range. I guess with sponsons the demolisher has some 36" shooting, will have to try it once.





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darkdm wrote: take a demolisher and slap plasma sponsons on it The demolisher may be shorter range, but it's going to hit a terminator almost every time

Hit "a" terminator? No wonder everyone plays space marines, apparently it's impossible to hit more than 1 total model firing 4-5 blast templates or 1 ordinance template /facepalm


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Ailaros wrote:
Yes, I'd like to point out that if you're taking a russ purely for the damage output, then you're doing it wrong.

People take AV14 because they're AV14 which means they're only scratched by S8 and only pen'd by S9 or point-blank melta stuff, etc.

People don't win by making an army with no survivability or flexibility. I deep struck some obliterators on his half of the field and 3 of them instantly snuffed 2 basilisks at non-close range. AV12 + open-topped + immobilized-death makes for very easy kills. And if what people say about templates is true, basilisks will hit like 0-1 enemies per turn with their shooting anyway.



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darkdm wrote:If you're that concered with terminators, buy a Veteran squad with plasma guns.

170 points for 10 T3 guys in a box, they can't shoot more than 12" if moving, 3 decent guns that often fail to fire and kill the wielder when you roll a 1 (with 6 shots up close, high chance 2 shots just vanish as one guy explodes.)

I don't see how they're a value and for 20 more points a moving-fortress that poses a threat at 72" and triple-threat at 36" is less desirable. It can even roll backwards while shooting them down. It seems the majority of ways.

I'm a fan of Melta vet's popping the landraider, and the using my plasma vets, and demolishers to clean up the termies. Sponsons are overpriced for what you get in the end. In order to fire everything you have to sit still, and watch the termies strolling up to you. (admittedly they are strolling through lots of pie plates.)

Leprousy wrote:I'm a fan of Melta vet's popping the landraider, and the using my plasma vets, and demolishers to clean up the termies. Sponsons are overpriced for what you get in the end. In order to fire everything you have to sit still, and watch the termies strolling up to you. (admittedly they are strolling through lots of pie plates.)

20 points more for a tooled AV14 tank as opposed to plasma vets with 3 plasma guns in chimera that kill themselves when they fire their guns which are only 12" range when moving (so they're out of range.)

The tank has a higher threat range at All times and is harder to kill. (Not to mention the plasma vets have no ability to damage AV14 while the LR has a S9 ordinance template which stands a chance of hurting other tanks 72" away while moving.)

TheBloodGod wrote:

darkdm wrote: take a demolisher and slap plasma sponsons on it The demolisher may be shorter range, but it's going to hit a terminator almost every time

Hit "a" terminator? No wonder everyone plays space marines, apparently it's impossible to hit more than 1 total model firing 4-5 blast templates or 1 ordinance template /facepalm

Yes, "a". Normally, you'll hit 3 or 4 terminators (2 or 3 if they're spaced well). I said "a" terminator because even with the scatter, which happens more often than not, you'll still hit at least someone. Smaller templates don't have the luxury of being able to scatter 7 or 8 inches off target and still hit a guy. 5 small templates will scatter 3 or 4 times, an average of 4 inches. If you're opponent is spaced at all, then you probably won't hit anyone with the ones that scatter.

TheBloodGod wrote:

darkdm wrote:If you're that concered with terminators, buy a Veteran squad with plasma guns.

170 points for 10 T3 guys in a box, they can't shoot more than 12" if moving, 3 decent guns that often fail to fire and kill the wielder when you roll a 1 (with 6 shots up close, high chance 2 shots just vanish as one guy explodes.)

I don't see how they're a value and for 20 more points a moving-fortress that poses a threat at 72" and triple-threat at 36" is less desirable. It can even roll backwards while shooting them down. It seems the majority of ways.

Because you saw it fit to butcher what I said and disect it how you choose, I'll but it back into a cohesive and complete thought for you:

darkdm wrote:
If you're that concered with terminators, take a demolisher and slap plasma sponsons on it, and buy a Veteran squad or CCS with plasma guns

Firstly, I never said you had to buy a chimera for them. As a matter of fact, it doesn't make sense to if you've got a bunch of other infantry on foot. I am going assume that since you mentioned putting them in a box, you run at least most of your army mechanized. That being said, you can buy them Carapace Armor and then they won't melt themselves as often. Or if they're in a CCS, give them a medi-pack (yes, you get FNP against Gets Hot! wounds). Also, you're plasma gunners survive longer because there are other wounds around them. A Leman Russ is AV 14 on the front, but only AV 10 and 11 on the back. Someone deepstrikes a multi-multa dreanaught or infiltrates some melta guns behind it, it's going to die quicker than that squad of guys.

Secondly, you can move backwards and fire backwards with foot soldiers. They also are able to hide in cover easier than vehicles are. Also, if you went the veteran squad route, the unit is scoring.

And by all means, do whatever you want, it's your army. I already threw in my two cents about which of your two choices in your original post I like better. Please, don't get frustrated with people for providing other alternatives for you.

TheBloodGod wrote: it is 12 armor instead of 14 armor

but you get 50% more units. 2 guns can't neutralise (however temporarily) 3 vehicles. When you throw in cover saves or being out of LOS entirely, artillery is actually plenty hard to kill.

TheBloodGod wrote:Are the obliterators costing 4 times more than they should cost? I've won dozens of games using them.

Most certainly artillery has counters. I would like to note, though, that deepstriking obliterators take out russes pretty much just as quickly as artillery, and both are equally vulnerable to assaults.

The only real durability advantage that the russ gets is when it's driving out in the open. As you're very much implying that you're not going to be doing this, then you squander much of that advantage while paying a premium for the privelage.

TheBloodGod wrote:I don't buy anyone's claims that 5 blast weapons normally averages 2 enemies touched in most real world games,

Then you've clearly never seen it done before.

Whenever people shoot small blast templates at me, they almost NEVER get more than ONE hit on my squads (and it only picks up the second if it scatters exactly 1" towards another model in the squad, something that very rarely happens, even though I pack the board with infantry).