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I just thought of this - instead of a dice off for first turn, the players build their lists with a bid for first turn. So, for example, you and your opponent agree to a 1500 point game, and you decide to sell out for an alpha strike. Instead of relying on the 50/50 for first turn, you could sacrifice 100 points for first turn. Your bid would be secret, not revealed until the start of the game, at which time you and your opponent reveal your bids. In case of a tie, do a normal dice off.

I think this could be a fun addition, a little bit of bluffing. You would have to choose between buying all sorts of wargear or perhaps making a slightly larger bid... or maybe you load up and let him go first and take his best shot before you fire back with superior numbers.

What do you think?

Sounds like an interesting idea, but this quickly leads to competitive players buying an almost guaranteed first turn so that their deathstar units can obliterate the enemy first turn.

But how many points would "guarantee" you a first turn?

Or look at it like this - how many points would you sacrifice to get first turn with your death star? 10? 100? 500? You would have to weigh the risks - at what point does guaranteeing first turn no longer become worth it?

Valkyrie wrote:Sounds like an interesting idea, but this quickly leads to competitive players buying an almost guaranteed first turn so that their deathstar units can obliterate the enemy first turn.

Has anyone tracked the statistics for highly competitive games in terms of player going first winning%? If there is a huge first turn advantage, your point holds true. However, my gut tells me it's not that significant, especially for some armies that actually prefer to go 2nd.

But what's the risk of bidding points?

Seems like everbody would bid max...

Cryonicleech wrote:But what's the risk of bidding points?

Seems like everbody would bid max...

I assume, if someone bids higher than you and wins, you've then lost all those points for nothing.

Cryonicleech wrote:But what's the risk of bidding points?

Seems like everbody would bid max...

No, he's saying your bid comes from your allowed points. So, if you bid max, you get no models.

Ohhh, I see...

Not a bad idea, I suppose. Given, for tournaments it might get a bit wonky...

Grakmar wrote:No, he's saying your bid comes from your allowed points. So, if you bid max, you get no models.

But your no models would get to go first!



It's potentially a very cool idea. I worry if there might be a problem with two armies bidding very highly, and the one that bids just a point more gaining an overwhelming advantage. So, if perhaps an army bid 100 points it'd be an even match with an army that bid nothing, but against an army that bid 105 points it'd be at a considerable disadvantage.

Still, only way to know for sure would be to see it in play.

it sounds good but is rife with loop holes and abuse like running a reserve army (i want a guard one) where you will basically always have your opponent losing a suad before it even starts, unless they know what you are up too, and then you have the stratagy of making a 1400 or lower force be able to fight a force with a few extra points, (yes this is possible done it once before) so then they always get first turn and hopefully level the field

So how exactly is this supposed to work in a typical situation? We both show up, and bid points for first turn, then find out who won, then make army lists knowing who has first turn? That wouldn't work with a normal tournament format, since you usually play 1 list for the whole tournament. It allows (and encourages) making a list to take apart the specific opposing army you're facing. You can completely optimize either for alpha strike or reserve, since you know when making your list whether you've got first turn or not.

Sounds to me like this destroys the idea of showing up with an all-comers list and competing, and puts heavy focus on rapidly making a list to beat down a specific opponent with a particular turn sequence instead of having to be prepared for anything.

I think this is a great idea. I'm sure with play a balance would be found where most people understand what a typical bid will be.

In regards to how it plays, I don't see you building a list on the spot. You agree to a points level (like normal) and when you bring in your army you have your list. Your army adds up to to agree upon points minus your bid. In a tourny it'll work fine since your list won't be changing. You either have a first turn army or not. Of course, I could be wrong and playtesting can reveal this to be totally abusable.

Anyways, one drawback I see is that armies that want to go second can virtually guarantee they get it by maxing their points. That doesn't seem to fair.

Fiend wrote:Anyways, one drawback I see is that armies that want to go second can virtually guarantee they get it by maxing their points. That doesn't seem to fair.

That might be the fatal flaw in this proposal.

Example:
1500pt game
I show up with a IG army that I really want to go first, so I have 1350pt of models and 150pt of "bid"
I end up facing you, with a Demon army and you want to go 2nd, so you have 1500pt of models and 0pt of bid
Now, not only do you get what you want, but I have a 150pt deficit to make up

Possible Fix.

First Turn Bid.
Any points left over from your allowance is considered to be your "first turn bid"
You may "spend" any amount of points on this bid.
The player that has the highest first turn bid decides who has the first turn.

This way armies that want to go second can bid and choose the opponent to go first, if the opponent bids higher they can force the player to go first.

That seems like a good alteration so that at least both sides are bidding.